Mystery Orchestra

[Mark]

What do you mean by "controlled mastery" here?

Whenever I've heard recordings by the VPO, the music has always sounded to me very taut, very precise, never 'Oh f**k it, let's just let our hair down'. It's like the VPO seem to think they have this prim and proper reputation to uphold, so everythng has to be just so. I find that most US orchestras I've listened to on recordings tend to take a slightly more relaxed (though not unstructured) approach; while British bands seem, again to me, to fall somewhere between their US and European counterparts.

All conjecture and subjectivity on my part, of course.

[M forever]

It's a pity you didn't take part in one of the earlier MO rounds in RMCR in which I had a very "wild" and "exciting", very "hair down" clip of Le Sacre, and people guessed all sorts of orchestras, but not the right one - namely the WP (with Zubin Mehta).
Actually, one poster, immediately identified the orchestra - but less by the "attitude", which as we have seen, can be very deceiving, but simply by the uniqe sound of the orchestras, some of the wind groups in particular. But he emailed his reply in, so the guessing could continue for a while.
Apparently, you never heard the WP conducted by Leonard Bernstein. You should do that sometime.

Aren't those things more influenced by the conductor, or rather the "chemistry" (or lack thereof, that can also happen...) between orchestra and conductor?

But that much only about those kind of preconceptions - again, it doesn't mean I am saying your corrected guess is right or wrong, just general remarks from me here.

Let us know what you think about the two bonus clips.

[Mark]

Apparently, you never heard the WP conducted by Leonard Bernstein. You should do that sometime.

Hmm ... I'll take some persuading to voluntarily listen to Lenny. What little I've heard of his work (and it is very little indeed) makes me grit my teeth, or else makes me want to punch nuns in the face. I've found my early encounters with him highly frustrating - he just doesn't do things the way I like them done. But, as I say, my experience of Lenny is very narrow indeed.

[Que]

But Q, you originally said, there is a French sounding element to the interpetation, but you would still guess CSO, that and the WP are two quite different sounding orchestras, aren't they?

Yes, they are. But there's always the interpretation by the conductor - and I think the French flavours would be a matter of the musical interpretation, although another source could be the tradition of the orchestra. I find it difficult to distinguish these elements - the ultimate sound seems a result of the interplay of the orchestra & conductor. I chose for an American orchestra because of the "objective", technically "polished" feel of the orchestra, for the CSO because of the French flavours - having their collaborations with Monteux and Munch in mind.

Q

[M forever]

I think Munch is generally more associated with the BSO, not the CSO. But that just as an aside, that doesn't have much to do with your observations which are interesting.
A lot of people also associate "spectacularly" good and rather prominent, bright brass playing with the CSO. Do you hear something like that here? Or maybe in the other clips? Or maybe not? Once again, just general questions, I am not trying to "steer" you.



BTW, I also wanted to say that I am impressed that most posters here concentrate on musical aspects and if they mention the quality of the recorded sound, they treat it as a different aspect - which it indeed is. Over in RMCR, most people simply equated "good modern" or "bright and shiny" sound with "great orchestra" and "not so great sound" with "second rate orchestra". Which doesn't make sense.

A performance can obviously be played extremely well, technically and musically, and still be recorded in less good, even bad sound. The overall impression of the recording as a whole will no doubt suffer, but one should be able to differentiate interpretation and playing on the one, technical aspects of the recording on the other hand.

[Bunny]

The first cllip has the tempos so stretched that I immediately start thinking of which conductors liked stretching things out that way.  Celibadache and Sinopoli were the first ones who came to mind, but Sidoze's elliptical reference to Asahina is also appropriate.  I also know that Sinopoli recorded this about 20 years ago with the NYPO and that he did stretch out the tempos in the slower parts.  I also think the organ was put in later by DG in the recording, but that isn't apparent when you listen to it.  So far, I can say that it's not Bernstein's recording with the NYPO, nor is it Karajan's with the BP, nor Solti's, nor Reiner's.  I also doubt it's Ormandy's with the PO because he never played with tempos to such an extreme.  I think he would have been run out of Philly if he had, especially coming in after Stokowski.

On to the next two clips.

[Bunny]

I think Munch is generally more associated with the BSO, not the CSO. But that just as an aside, that doesn't have much to do with your observations which are interesting.
A lot of people also associate "spectacularly" good and rather prominent, bright brass playing with the CSO. Do you hear something like that here? Or maybe in the other clips? Or maybe not? Once again, just general questions, I am not trying to "steer" you.



BTW, I also wanted to say that I am impressed that most posters here concentrate on musical aspects and if they mention the quality of the recorded sound, they treat it as a different aspect - which it indeed is. Over in RMCR, most people simply equated "good modern" or "bright and shiny" sound with "great orchestra" and "not so great sound" with "second rate orchestra". Which doesn't make sense.

A performance can obviously be played extremely well, technically and musically, and still be recorded in less good, even bad sound. The overall impression of the recording as a whole will no doubt suffer, but one should be able to differentiate interpretation and playing on the one, technical aspects of the recording on the other hand.

The first clip didn't sound like the Chicago brass to me, but it's hard work making this decision "blind."

[Mark]

On the subject of sound quality (and, by extension, age of recording), I'm going to say that the first clip in this thread was recorded in the early 1980s. There's just a hint of hiss, however, which could well place it a little earlier, before those first digital recordings.

[Bunny]

No, I retract this first guess. It's not the VPO. It lacks their controlled mastery. It's almost certainly a US orchestra ... though a few moments make me want to hazard a guess that it might be the LSO in an earlier incarnation.

How can you know that it has to be American?  Controlled mastery?  whatever does that mean?

Que,

French sounding orchestra?  The Boston Symphony under Munch was one of the most French sounding orchestras outside France in his day.  Leinsdorf was also famous for defusing musical tension, so could this be the BSO under Leinsdorf?  I believe he also recorded this piece with them at one point, but it's probably long oop. 

[Bunny]

On the subject of sound quality (and, by extension, age of recording), I'm going to say that the first clip in this thread was recorded in the early 1980s. There's just a hint of hiss, however, which could well place it a little earlier, before those first digital recordings.

I have recordings with hiss that were made in the mid '80s as well. 

[Mark]

Hey, Bunny - chill!

I'm just taking potshots here.

That said, the more I hear that first clip, it does sound American to me. Can't pinpoint why, though. East Coast? West Coast? Somewhere in the middle? No idea.

[Que]

The first clip didn't sound like the Chicago brass to me, but it's hard work making this decision "blind."

No bright brass....M's hint been taken!

Not to cheat or spoil the fun or anything- but I just checked two conductors who came to my mind, it being a fairly modern recording and thinking of a combination of "objective" and "French": Seiji Ozawa (not French, but I consider his style very much French influenced/orientated) and Pierre Boulez.
I checked check if they recorded this piece with either BSO or CSO. And guess what? Ozawa recorded with the BSO, Boulez with the CSO. I didn't listen to on line samples btw - that definitely would spoil the fun.
No brass  and Boulez being the more analytical of the two (more analytical than the sound of this clip) and Ozawa the more "indulging" one , my (very) wild guess would be: Ozawa with the BSO.

Q

[M forever]

Apart from the "lack of controlled mastery" (I am just quoting here, not making fun of the expression), what makes you think this could be an American orchestra? Specifically, which elements of sound and playing style give you that impression?

The first clip didn't sound like the Chicago brass to me, but it's hard work making this decision "blind."

Welcome to Mystery Orchestra. That is basically the main point here.

A lot of people find it *extremely easy* to declare this or that is "the best orchestra in the world" though, and become extremely upset if others don't share that "opinion" and they make all these nonsensical polls, and a lot of people click there.
In a lot of discussions, people also "hear" all sorts of things in the interpretations, how the music in in this orchestra's "blood" - or "not" - or how this orchestra is "unfamiliar" with that repertoire because they allegedly never play it or at least "don't want to" and all that other nonsense.
They also "hear" a lot in certain conductors' interpretations, usually based on whatever preconceptions they have about the artist.

But only if they *know* who they are listening to. When they don't, all that changes rather quickly and drastically.

And the most interesting thing is that typically, the people with the most radical "opinions" stay away completely from these threads.

Hmm...I wonder why?

Leinsdorf was also famous for defusing musical tension, so could this be the BSO under Leinsdorf?  I believe he also recorded this piece with them at one point, but it's probably long oop. 

Maybe he did. Or maybe not. Maybe it is OOP. Or maybe not. But - do you have any currently OOP recordings at home? I do. A lot. How can you know what I have? Don't worry about that.

I noticed you only concentrated on questions of tempo, but not really musical style or orchestral sound.

[M forever]

No bright brass....M's hint been taken!

I said this several times over, including in bold.

Once again:

I do not give hints. I ask questions.

Unless I specifically say "here is a hint for you". All questions are not meant to "steer" you or anyone in any directions. I just pick up points people make and ask them to elaborate or investigate them further. Which does *not* mean "you may be on the right" or "do you really think so, maybe you should think again".

It simply means, "please tell us more about why you think this or that". Nothing else.

The game is played with the clips, not the players.

Not to cheat or spoil the fun or anything- but I just checked two conductors who came to my mind, it being a fairly modern recording and thinking of a combination of "objective" and "French": Seiji Ozawa (not French, but I consider his style very much French influenced/orientated) and Pierre Boulez.
I checked check if they recorded this piece with either BSO or CSO. And guess what? Ozawa recorded with the BSO, Boulez with the CSO. I didn't listen to on line samples btw - that definitely would spoil the fun.

Of course you can listen to clips or recordings you have and compare them. But that's totally up to you. Checking who made which recordings with whom already goes into that direction. And that's totally OK. It's developing a theory and trying to put it into context. We automatically do that, even in "blind" situations. There is no way around that. Unless you can gather absolutely no information from the blind listening - but then it doesn't matter anyway. I just think that listening to those massively compressed online clips is waste of time.

No brass  and Boulez being the more analytical of the two (more analytical than the sound of this clip) and Ozawa the more "indulging" one , my (very) wild guess would be: Ozawa with the BSO.

So you think the BSO has no prominent brass? And the brass here is neither bright nor prominent? That's a question, not a "hint". Or actually, it's two questions, but still 0 hints.

[Bunny]

Hey, Bunny - chill!

I'm just taking potshots here.

That said, the more I hear that first clip, it does sound American to me. Can't pinpoint why, though. East Coast? West Coast? Somewhere in the middle? No idea.

Sorry!  I've  had a strange morning and the coffee doesn't seem to be doing its job.   I still don't know why you think it's an American orchestra, especially as you are basing the assumption on a lack of precision in the playing. Certainly there was no more precise orchestra than the Cleveland under Szell; and the Chicago under Abbado and Barenboim played in as mature and elegant a fashion as any European orchestra.

One of the problems trying to identify an orchestra by timbre is the fact that much of the sound is actually from the hall where the orchestra plays.  I don't think there is much difference in orchestra sounds nowadays, especially when they are in a recording studio.  Certainly the Chicago's brass and the WP's horns are singular, as well as the darker tone of the SK Dresden (and I don't know precisely what is responsible for that tone).  For the rest, I don't know if I could hear a difference between the orchestras as they all seem to use similar manufature instruments (although I think some of the Concertgebouw's tympani use leather tops). 

No bright brass....M's hint been taken!

Not to cheat or spoil the fun or anything- but I just checked two conductors who came to my mind, it being a fairly modern recording and thinking of a combination of "objective" and "French": Seiji Ozawa (not French, but I consider his style very much French influenced/orientated) and Pierre Boulez.
I checked check if they recorded this piece with either BSO or CSO. And guess what? Ozawa recorded with the BSO, Boulez with the CSO. I didn't listen to on line samples btw - that definitely would spoil the fun.
No brass  and Boulez being the more analytical of the two (more analytical than the sound of this clip) and Ozawa the more "indulging" one , my (very) wild guess would be: Ozawa with the BSO.

Q

The Boston SO hasn't sounded French since the middle of Leinsdorf's tenure -- sometime in the 1950s.  I'm not that familiar with Ozawa's work, but I never heard that he was one to stretch out tempos so idiosyncratically as on the first clip.  I'm still trying to figure out if Celibidache actually recorded Also Sprach Zarathustra.  It doesn't sound objective enough for Boulez.  Abbado, however seems to love understated performances.  He can get so buttoned up emotionally; however, I also don't see him stretching out the tempos this way.

[MishaK]

OK. Full report.

Clip No.1:

Again, I'm not very fond of this performance. Ensemble is not very tight and balances are not good. The middle brass keep piercing through in crescendos thereby creating lopsided chords. The brass rather drowns out everyone else in many places. The organ is a joke. In general, this seems to be a conductor who doesn't enforce balances or dynamic distinctions very well, which would therefore exclude Maazel and Haitink, which some people guessed earlier. While the Introduction is played rather perfunctorily and without much distinction (it's rather fast, not slow as some have said), the "von den Hinterweltlern" section is very idiomatically played, but the soloists don't have the most solid intonation and the rest of the string section isn't as warm or smooth as it would be with some of the finest orchestras. This would thereby rule out for me the BPO, VPO or Concertgebouw all of which have very different string sounds, but our clip matches neither one in any case. The solo horn in "von den Hinterweltlern" also protrudes rather too much and has a different opinion on intonation than the strings. "Von der grossen Sehnsucht" again sounds a little ragged, but here finally both conductor and orchestra seem to be warming up to the music and really getting into the performance where they were a bit detached before. On the whole this sounds like a live broadcast recording, though I didn't notice any audience noise. Whoever said this is the CSO has never heard the CSO. It is most definitely not the CSO. Somebody guessed Tonhalle/Zinman which I find very plausible, given what I have heard of Zinman's style. I have, however, never heard the Tonhalle, so I can't identify them. The orchestra in this clip seems to rather have a certain edge and bite that is not typical of continental Europe. My guess here would be this is the BSO during the Ozawa era. The loose cannon brass and the general lack of enthusiasm rather remind me of it. But I am not entirely certain of my guess here. I wouldn't be surprised if this were an orchestra I have never heard live.

Clip No.2:

Lovely sound, lovely dynamics. Wish the brass attacks in the intro were more together, but you can't have everything. But what a great opening! Puts No.1 to shame. Far better dynamic range and balances. More secure string soloists in the "von den Hinterweltlern" section, but on the other hand slightly less charm than No.1. But what grand landscapes! Perhaps just a tad too lush. "Von der grossen Sehnsucht" describes some truly enormous "Sehnsucht". Great playing and direction here. The contrasts in this performance are really amazing. Brass, string and woodwinds sound American, but with some warmth and graininess and the solo trumpet does sound like Philip Smith, so I am going to join Sarge in the NYPO guess. It sounds plausibly Sinopolian but I wouldn't be entirely shocked if this turned out to be Mehta.

Clip No.3:

In your face miking! Short but succinct and compelling intro. Compare to 1 which is almost as brief but feels much less taut. Great balances, clear but warm sound. "Von den Hinterweltlern" is perhaps best played here from a technical perspective. Feels like I am listening to accomplished chamber musicians in the initial section, but with a distinctly German portamento. These guys, unlike No.2 did not learn string playing at Juilliard. Woodwinds are nicely prominent in this recording. They barely figure in 1 and blend nicely in 2, but here they really have definition even in the climaxes. "von der grossen Sehnsucht" is very interesting. Compared to 2, the conductor here cooks up a great storm with his quick pace and ferocity, but it is a different storm than 2 which is slower paced initially and gains an inexorable momentum. Both are far more compelling than 1, but so different! At first I thought this could be Maazel/SOBR, as it seemed like the sort of no-nonsense interpretation he would favor. But the chamber-like character of the "Hinterweltler opening should have been obvious. This is the BPO. Based on the in your face miking and the lean but impactive interpretation, I am nearly certain this is Solti on Decca.

Thanks, M. This has been the most interesting MO so far. The comparisons are far better than just having a single clip.

[M forever]

Can you say a bit about why they are included?

The main subject here is the first one, no?

Not necessarily. I usually just start with one clip, and then add more later. Normally just one, sometimes two, depending on how the discussion goes. But this discussion has only been going on for a day or so, and there are already a lot of interesting posts. So I will probably add some more later.

You can listen to as many or as few and comment on as many as you like or none, listen to the whole clip or just spotcheck. If you listen to a clip and don't find anything worth sharing or discussing in the clip, just ignore it or say "I have nothing to say about this".
Which means you don't have to review each one in order to take part. You don't have to compare them. You can just comment on them individually. Although I think the comparing happens "automatically", and most people will chose one or two which appeal more to them and say why.
That is one of the main points of this website in general, I think.

If you wonder why and how I chose the clips, the original and the bonuses (or "boni), like I said, there is really no system or "agenda". I just chose recordings which I think make for interesting listening and reviewing, and possibly comparing. Why? Because I think they are totally awesome? Because they completely suck? No. I usually do try to chose somehow contrasting performances, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
What *I* think about the clips will be revealed at the end of each round, when I reveal the MO performers' identities. But my comments are possibly the least interesting in this contexts, since I do not test them "blindly".

Along the way, I try to "moderate" or "host", but not "steer". I try to clarify and sum up, otherwise, it can get confusing very quickly, but I do not try to make people reconsider what they said. That would completely defeat the purpose of this game and spoil the fun, for me asmuch as for everyone else.

[Que]

I said this several times over, including in bold.

Once again:

I do not give hints. I ask questions.

Unless I specifically say "here is a hint for you". All questions are not meant to "steer" you or anyone in any directions. I just pick up points people make and ask them to elaborate or investigate them further. Which does *not* mean "you may be on the right" or "do you really think so, maybe you should think again".

It simply means, "please tell us more about why you think this or that". Nothing else.

The game is played with the clips, not the players.

M, your point is taken.

So you think the BSO has no prominent brass? And the brass here is neither bright nor prominent? That's a question, not a "hint". Or actually, it's two questions, but still 0 hints.

I think most American orchestras have relatively "bright" (a bit "steely") brass. But, the BSO orchestral sound is generally softer edged in my impression (in comparison with the CSO), and I overlooked the BSO's "French credentials", so the BSO seems a good candidate.

Q

[Bunny]

O Mensch, clip 1 sounds much more stretched in the beginning than any other recording of this that I've heard.  While the rest of it isn't slower, the opening was stretched out.  Just listen to the rumble of the gong (or tamtam) and how it just bleeds for seconds and seconds.  Also, the fact that the organ is so miserable is what made me think of the Sinopoli recording.  The organ in that recording was added by DG after the production because the NYPO only had a crappy organ imitation at that time.  It was also recorded in Avery Fisher Hall where the acoustics were notorious for unbalanced sound.  However, I'm just an amateur -- not really an expert on this and you actually know what you are talking about, so I suspect you've probably nailed it.  (sigh)  Another factor was the rough play, also a characteristic of the NYPO when they don't care for what the conductor is doing. 

The second clip was a little less stretched than the first, but still very  luxurious opening without sacrificing tension the way the first one did.

I've heard Zinman's Beethoven and Schumann with the Zurich Tonhalle, and that orchestra doesn't sound like this (first) one.  It's a far cleaner sound and the play is very good.  If Zinman was the conductor, it must have been while he was still in Baltimore, and I'm not sure if he even recorded it then.  It does not sound like his recordings in Zurich which have a very different sound signature.

Third clip is very dynamic.  Solti does come to mind first.


Edit: I want to add this without reading anything else that's been posted --

Thinking about the clips, I realized that the first clip is a lot older than I first supposed.  I feel it has to be from the early days of stereo -- possibly the early 1960s.  The orchestra playing is very rough and there are parts that fall apart.  I don't think M would post something very obscure, so now I'm thinking in terms of Horenstein, Barbirolli or even klemperer, with less than stellar orchestra.  Sorry, but to me the sound doesn't sound quintessentially American.  I do think it does sounds more like a provincial orchestra rather than one in a major center of musical culture, though and I'll bet that that's not correct either.

[Drasko]

Over in RMCR, most people simply equated "good modern" or "bright and shiny" sound with "great orchestra" and "not so great sound" with "second rate orchestra". Which doesn't make sense.

Related to this orchestral quality - sound quality equation I think that first clip features very good orchestra in not so very good sound which is somewhat distant and hazy in quieter sections.
As for orchestra, some previous speculations mentioned VPO, I don't feel it is, that oboe at around 5:45 doesn't sound particularly Viennese to me (nor french for that matter).
Also would be surprised if it turns out to be Asahina conducting. Haven't heard his Zarathustra but based on some other things there is certain very controlled and slightly understated aspect to his interpretations that I don't hear in this clip.
It does on the other hand fit Sinopoli's interpretative profile but then the sound provided for some of his other New York recordings by DG is more immediate with greater presence that this (again I haven't heard his Zarathustra).
But I wouldn't exclude the New York as an option, did Mehta record the piece second time with them?

Haven't listened to the other two clips, way too much Zarathustra sprachen for me.