Schoenberg vs Berg vs Webern

[jhar26]

If we can do Strauss vs Mahler we can also have a poll poll about the holy trinity of the second Viennese school. 

[Lethevich]

Schoenberg is most enjoyable for me by a fair margin, due to the breadth and variety of what he wrote. I would mention his consistent quality as well, but that applies to all of them.

[False_Dmitry]

WOZZECK, LULU and SIX EARLY SONGS - a corpus of major work that puts Berg on the same level as Britten, Janacek, Stravinsky & Shostakovich among C20th composers.   Berg's works have remained in the current repertoire of opera-houses and orchestras - something you cannot say about Schoenberg or Webern, I'm afraid.  They too, are fine composers....  but they are not great composers.

[rappy]

Nonsense. What has presence in the repertoire of opera-houses and orchestras to do with greatness?

I find it very difficult to pick. If I could only have one, I would take Schönberg because of the variety of his output.

[False_Dmitry]

Nonsense. What has presence in the repertoire of opera-houses and orchestras to do with greatness?

I find it very difficult to pick. If I could only have one, I would take Schönberg because of the variety of his output.

Another loudmouth here, I see?  ROFL!!!   Learn some manners, why don't you?  Ha!  The opinions of someone with your approach are clearly worth $0.00

I doubt you know the work of any of these composers anyhow.

[rappy]

Might be all true, however, your argument remains nonsense. How can you claim that Schönberg is not a great composer because he's not as popular as Berg?!

[False_Dmitry]

Might be all true, however, your argument remains nonsense. How can you claim that Schönberg is not a great composer because he's not as popular as Berg?!

Opera houses and concert halls are places where music is performed.  Audiences attend these performances.  It was where Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Busoni and Co all intended their work to be heard.   To dismiss this as "nonsense" is, I'm afraid, a fundamental misunderstanding of classical music.

When was the last time MOSES & AARON was produced at the Met, or Covent Garden?  And when did they last do LULU or WOZZECK, by comparison?

[karlhenning]

Cannot choose from among them; each has his own voice, and I cherish each voice.

[Josquin des Prez]

Webern > Berg > Schoenberg. Just a personal assessment.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I love 'em all, but I put Schoenberg on top. His more copious oeuvre contains a wider range of fascinating detours and nooks & crannies than the other two. There's just more to explore and enjoy. 

[jochanaan]

Opera houses and concert halls are places where music is performed.  Audiences attend these performances.  It was where Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Busoni and Co all intended their work to be heard.   To dismiss this as "nonsense" is, I'm afraid, a fundamental misunderstanding of classical music.

When was the last time MOSES & AARON was produced at the Met, or Covent Garden?  And when did they last do LULU or WOZZECK, by comparison?

But there are other reasons besides lack of "popularity" or "greatness" that many operas are not staged in major opera houses.

I'm with Karl; I love'em all.  (Where is that option on the poll?)

[Lethevich]

When was the last time MOSES & AARON was produced at the Met, or Covent Garden?  And when did they last do LULU or WOZZECK, by comparison?

I too am a little puzzled by your argument - sure Berg wrote two great operas and many fine songs, but somewhat at the expense of other cornerstones of composition - a string quartet cycle, and chamber music in general - but nobody here has begrudged him this point.

[False_Dmitry]

I'm with Karl; I love'em all.  (Where is that option on the poll?)

And so do I.  I simply said I have a preference for Berg's work. 

Is it politically incorrect to like some music more than others in this Henning-ruled madhouse now?  Jesus H Christ!

[Josquin des Prez]

I too am a little puzzled by your argument - sure Berg wrote two great operas and many fine songs, but somewhat at the expense of other cornerstones of composition - a string quartet cycle, and chamber music in general - but nobody here has begrudged him this point.

What are you talking about. Both the Lyric Suite and the Opus 6 are more perfect then anything Schoenberg ever wrote. Indeed, the one difference between Schoenberg and his students is that the first tried to pretend atonal music could just be a substitute to standard tonality, so he used it freely and sometimes carelessly. By comparison, both Berg and Webern understood that atonality wasn't worth a damn unless they made sure every single note was worth writing.

[MDL]

 The breadth of Schoenberg's work is absolutely astounding. I can't understand those people  who claim that his work is dry and academic. If you can't hear the passion and intensity in Moses und Aron, Erwartung, the Five Pieces for Orchestra, the Second String Quartet or A Survivor From Warsaw, then you're not trying hard enough! Berg's Wozzeck is stunning and utterly essential listening; Lulu I find a bit patchy. Webern  is fascinating but a bit hard to love; the Six Pieces and the two Cantatas, fine though they are, don't match up to Schoenberg's catalogue of masterworks.

[Sergeant Rock]

What are you talking about. Both the Lyric Suite and the Opus 6 are more perfect then anything Schoenberg ever wrote.

Prove it.

Sarge

[Lethevich]

What are you talking about. Both the Lyric Suite and the Opus 6 are more perfect then anything Schoenberg ever wrote. Indeed, the one difference between Schoenberg and his students is that the first tried to pretend atonal music could just be a substitute to standard tonality, so he used it freely and sometimes carelessly. By comparison, both Berg and Webern understood that atonality wasn't worth a damn unless they made sure every single note was worth writing.

I am no musician and cannot verify anything substantively, but as much as I enjoy the Lyric Suite, Schoenberg's 2-4 seem to step up another level. The Lyric Suite is too comfortable. In his quartets, Schoenberg's expressionist 2nd and endlessly searching 3rd and 4th come across to me as greater achivements - in part because of how challenging they seem to have been to write, and yet how he moulded coherent results from them.

Berg's 3 pieces for orchestra are great, and I don't think Schoenberg wrote anything to surpass them, but I also do not believe that they can diminish Schoenberg's wider and more rounded output. If given a choice between Berg's major orchestra and chamber works or Schoenberg's I would go with the latter because he wrote more great music. If Berg lived longer and wrote more, my opinion could easily be different.

I don't feel as though I am choosing quantity over quality, as I don't believe that (for example) Schoenberg's 5 pieces in any way pale to Berg's 3, although I do have a very mild preference for the latter.

[Mirror Image]

I've mentioned my love of Berg many times on this forum. He wins very easily for me. I can tolerate his 12-tone works, but for some reason I just can't stand to hear Schoenberg's or Webern's 12-tone music. I guess because sonically, to me, Berg was still holding onto some kind of Romantic ideal. The lyricism of Berg is what drew me in and keeps me there. Even when Berg is at his most brutal, he's still lyrically expressive.

[rappy]

When was the last time MOSES & AARON was produced at the Met, or Covent Garden?  And when did they last do LULU or WOZZECK, by comparison?

So then, Mozart is great and Haydn isn't because the latter's operas aren't near as popular as Mozart's?
Where is the logic? There are so many Schönberg pieces being frequently performed. Verklärte Nacht, the Chamber Symphony Op. 9 (probably performed far more often than the Berg Chamber concerto), The Op. 15... the piano works op. 11, op. 19!! Even the piano concerto is quite popular, I think. Of course not in relation to a Beethoven concerto, but certainly comparable with the output of Berg and Webern...

[greg]

Overall, Schoenberg for me. My favorite 2nd Viennese works are Webern's Passacaglia and Berg's 3 Pieces, but after that, they just don't do as much for me as Schoenberg does.