Typically French

[Sylph]

What does the phrase French music/French sound mean for you? In terms of melody, instrumentation/orchestration, choice of subjects and musical forms etc.? Is the sound of a French orchestra and what should be a French-sounding work easily recognizable and how? Should the horns be gentle, strings transparent, winds a bit nasal?

Anything that you associate with French quality of music — feel free to share.

[some guy]

I listen to a lot of music that has been composed by people who were born in France. There doesn't seem to be anything typical about it. Some things from certain times sound similar. Saint-Saens sounds like Berlioz a lot, for instance,* the guys who were hanging out in the teens and twenties share a couple of tricks, and the electroacoustic composers from France and from Canada share a few predilections. But then so did the Michigan group from the sixties, and you never hear Mumma and Ashley and Lucier and Reynolds described as "typically American," do you?**

If there are typicalities, I'd expect them to be more from different times (and different groups) than from different countries. Even in Lithuania today, where a "Lithuanian sound" is consciously cultivated, the composers are all quite different from each other.

*As do the Russians, whom Berlioz really got all fired up when he visited there. (A lot of what we think of as "typically Russian" was actually "French.")

**Hmmm. That might be kinda fun, if it happened!!

[jochanaan]

One quality I tend to associate with most French music is lightness.  Most of the great French music demands a light touch to be truly effective; this is almost as true for Berlioz as for Saint Saens or Debussy.  (It's not uncommon to see pppp markings in Berlioz's scores! )  And the French (and English) orchestral sound is typically lighter and brighter than the typical Austro-German or American sound.

[hornteacher]

French style generally means an emphasis on wind instruments, tone color, and dance.  The lightness or smoothness to French music can be attributed to the soft sounds of the French language (which also accounts for the angular composition styles of the Germans who have a more consonant based language with hard T's and K's).  This is why the Germans tended to excel in instrumental music based on motivic development, and why the Italians, whose language has the perfect mix of hard and soft sounds, created a music based on melodic line and vocally conceived music.  This also serves to explain why the French were the ones to come up with the idea of tone color being exploited as a musical element in its own right (Impressionism), as their language and culture are more about the experience than the details.  Less formal structure, more ambiance.

[some guy]

French style generally means an emphasis on wind instruments, tone color, and dance.  The lightness or smoothness to French music can be attributed to the soft sounds of the French language (which also accounts for the angular composition styles of the Germans who have a more consonant based language with hard T's and K's).  This is why the Germans tended to excel in instrumental music based on motivic development, and why the Italians, whose language has the perfect mix of hard and soft sounds, created a music based on melodic line and vocally conceived music.  This also serves to explain why the French were the ones to come up with the idea of tone color being exploited as a musical element in its own right (Impressionism), as their language and culture are more about the experience than the details.  Less formal structure, more ambiance.

Yes, well that certainly explains Varèse, doesn't it? And Boulez and Berlioz and Saint-Saëns and Pierre Henry and....

But seriously, this really matches few if any actual pieces of music by people who were born in France. And neither Berlioz nor Debussy were "the French." They were each of them individual people, and where they differ is much more interesting, I would say, than where they're similar.

[hornteacher]

Yes, well that certainly explains Varèse, doesn't it? And Boulez and Berlioz and Saint-Saëns and Pierre Henry and....

But seriously, this really matches few if any actual pieces of music by people who were born in France. And neither Berlioz nor Debussy were "the French." They were each of them individual people, and where they differ is much more interesting, I would say, than where they're similar.

I'm just quoting (or paraphrasing really) from a Teaching Company Lecture on "Bach and the High Baroque" by Robert Greenberg.  He makes a great case for the "French style" in his lectures on how Bach integrated the "French style" into his own music.

[Scarpia]

The question is absurdly vague and unanswerable.  It might make sense if it were narrowed to either performance or composition, and to some epoch.  I personally find it fun to listen to recordings by French orchestras made in the middle of the 20th century, when orchestras still had a distinct regional character.  The style of wind playing in French orchestra was distinctive in those days.  Not as distinctive today.

[Josquin des Prez]

But seriously, this really matches few if any actual pieces of music by people who were born in France. And neither Berlioz nor Debussy were "the French." They were each of them individual people, and where they differ is much more interesting, I would say, than where they're similar.

Both Berlioz (who's all color and no development) and Debussy are quintessentially french. I have no idea of what you are trying to do here. The French had a distinctive style since the day Lully stepped into the country. I am not sure whether language is to blame but the fact each nation had their own unique stylistic traits is undeniable.

This is why the Germans tended to excel in instrumental music based on motivic development

The first German composer to employ horizontal development was Sweelinck, who wasn't really German. I think its more likely a cultural thing.

[snyprrr]

How about the orchestral suites by Poulenc and Milhaud?

The Debussy/Ravel SQ one-two punch always did it for me. Compare to SQs by Borodin, Busoni, Reger, Novak, Dvorak,... you can just hear a difference,...

and yes, it's a time period thing.

so, viva la difference!




Does Sarkozy's France sound the same as Debussy's?

[Sylph]

The question is absurdly vague and unanswerable.

But it is. Answerable. Look:

French style generally means an emphasis on wind instruments, tone color, and dance.

He makes a great case for the "French style" in his lectures on how Bach integrated the "French style" into his own music.

The French had a distinctive style since the day Lully stepped into the country. I am not sure whether language is to blame but the fact each nation had their own unique stylistic traits is undeniable.

It's just that, although all three posts claim (rightfully) that there is a French style, they don't really define it.

What makes something you listen to — French? What kind of orchestral colour for example? Why did the French prefer to have 2 trumpets and 2 cornets instead of 4 trumpets, e.g., and how does that contributed to a certain sound, if at all?

[Scarpia]

But it is. Answerable. Look:

It is answerable by vague generalities that contradict each other. 

[drogulus]

It is answerable by vague generalities that contradict each other. 

     That's true enough, so the correct answer will be either vague and contradictory or a concise history of French music with lots of counterexamples. Family resemblances are like that, too. They tend to be this, except when they aren't, and so on. French music has developed along a vaguely recognizable path that can be contested in instances, but what I recognize as French is the emphasis on color, and an aversion to development as an end in itself. Architecture is either hidden or kept simple (song & dance).

[Brahmsian]

When I think French music, the first composers that come to mind for me are Faure, and Franck (yes, I know he's Belgian).

[Drasko]

What makes something you listen to — French? What kind of orchestral colour for example?

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Maurice%20Ravel%20-%20Pavane%20pour%20une%20infante%20defunte.mp3

Listen to French horn and bassoon particularly.

[drogulus]

     Here we have the 2nd movement of Guilmant's Symphony No.1, so it should make a good counterexample 'cause it's a symphony, right? But no, it's an example both of colorism and the tendency to deemphasize formal elaboration for evocation. Also, note the rhythm, which is typically French (dadaa dadaa, etc. following the language). Like so much that's French it's dotty but catchy!

[some guy]

Berlioz (who's all color and no development)....

This is very high on my personal list of funniest comments about music from online forums.

[jochanaan]

...Does Sarkozy's France sound the same as Debussy's?

I didn't know M. Sarkozy was a composer! Or did you mean Madame Sarkozy?

[Josquin des Prez]

This is very high on my personal list of funniest comments about music from online forums.

Well, he's also harmony. But certainly not development.

[jochanaan]

Well, he's also harmony. But certainly not development.

Like lots of others, I have to beg to differ.  Whatever one can say about Berlioz, one has to recognize that in pieces like the Symphonie Fantastique, the Roman Carnival Overture, and Harold in Italy, Berlioz develops his themes and motives with great skill and imagination.

[Josquin des Prez]

Like lots of others, I have to beg to differ.  Whatever one can say about Berlioz, one has to recognize that in pieces like the Symphonie Fantastique, the Roman Carnival Overture, and Harold in Italy, Berlioz develops his themes and motives with great skill and imagination.

Yes but he doesn't make architectures its own justification, which is what i meant. Berlioz developments play along a simple natural line or narrative progression. There's an abyss between him and Beethoven, who's almost archetypically German.