Language Learners

[Geo Dude]

I'm currently taking a crack at learning French through a combination of DuoLingo, MemRise, and a few other supporting apps (largely grammar apps on the phone, though Decoder French, a phonetics/pronunciation app is a godsend) and some workbooks.  At some point be digging into some French literature on Kindle when I get a stronger grounding in grammar and broaden my vocabulary a bit*, as well as joining some discussion groups and probably setting up the occasional Skype with a native speaker. (Thank you, Facebook!)  I'm about three weeks in at this point, so I'm currently focusing on getting the basics of grammar down and using DL to keep my vocabulary fresh.  I can worry about the heavier stuff later.  Also, it's given me an excuse to dig into French baroque recordings, along with songs.

*(According to Duolingo I'm at 283 words, but if I'm being honest probably it's closer to 100-150 that I feel comfortable with in terms of being able to translate by memory.)

In the meantime, if anyone has any plays (or movies, but plays in particular) they can suggest with English subtitles that would be available on YouTube/Netflix or at a reasonable price through Amazon I'd love to hear about them.

[Florestan]

I'm currently taking a crack at learning French

Good luck with it! What other Romance languages --- if any --- are you familiar with? It might help tremendously concerning vocabulary; the grammar, though, is in a class of its own. 

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

I'm currently taking a crack at learning French...
In the meantime, if anyone has any plays (or movies, but plays in particular) they can suggest with English subtitles that would be available on YouTube/Netflix or at a reasonable price through Amazon I'd love to hear about them.

Florestan is correct, French grammar is what the Brits might call "fiddly," and presents challenges.  Just take it slow and don't expect too much too fast.  Or take it real fast (go there and go the 'total immersion' route which is more effective anyway than a gazillion classroom or study hours).  Movies and plays are a good idea to begin with but at some point soon - just a suggest - switch to viewing with French subtitles, so you can read what is being said, best way to link the two in your brain and become more self-reliant, even if you don't know all the words!   

[Florestan]

Movies and plays are a good idea to begin with but at some point soon - just a suggest - switch to viewing with French subtitles, so you can read what is being said, best way to link the two in your brain and become more self-reliant, even if you don't know all the words!

That's indeed a good suggestion.

And, of course, don't expect the spoken language to be much like the literary one. For instance, in colloquial French the literary voiture becomes bagnole. 

[EigenUser]

French isn't too bad at all. I took five years (from French I in 8th grade to AP French in 12th grade) and I've been there twice for a month each time. The first time I stayed with a family as an exchange student in the summer in St. Malo (not too many there speak English well). I can definitely have a conversation, but I still struggle with listening. I'm a much better speaker. It seems like there is no general consensus based on people I've talked to -- people who learn second languages are either better at speaking (as I am) or better at listening.

[Florestan]

French isn't too bad at all. I took five years (from French I in 8th grade to AP French in 12th grade) and I've been there twice for a month each time. The first time I stayed with a family as an exchange student in the summer in St. Malo (not too many there speak English well). I can definitely have a conversation, but I still struggle with listening.

I've studied French for 4 years, from 9th to 12th grade, but I had no background for it, because from 4th to 8th grade I had studied English and Russian and consequently the teacher confined me and other like me to the status of "beginners", as opposed to those "advanced" who had studied French instead of Russian previously. I really learned functional French while living in Grenoble for a 1-year study grant. I am able to sustain a conversation on any topic, to write a decent letter or report and, best of all, to read --- but if you gave me a grammar test I would fail it brilliantly. 

It seems like there is no general consensus based on people I've talked to -- people who learn second languages are either better at speaking (as I am) or better at listening.

There is yet another category: those who are best at reading, and that's me.  Except English, which I can speak, write and read with equal fluency, for other languages I am best at reading: French, Italian, Spanish (Castilian), Catalan, Portuguese and Dutch fall in this category. Of these, besides French I can make myself understood in Spanish and Italian, but I have the double advantage of (1) natively speaking a Romance language and (2) being quite gifted for learning foreign languages --- and also very modest, too. 

[ibanezmonster]

There is yet another category: those who are best at reading, and that's me. 

Seems like this should be able to apply to everyone, since reading is always the easiest thing to do in second language, even Chinese.

[Florestan]

reading is always the easiest thing to do in second language

I agree.

[Ken B]

I can read French ziemlich gut but ein bischen langsam. I read Candide and some Balzac and Maupassant a few years ago. Balzac was hard. Had French in school for a few years, long ago.  I am entirely self-taught in German, and have read a modest amount, including some Grimm and Heinrich Ball stories. Un peu lentement.  My accent is I am told pretty decent. But you can never tell with Germans; they seem so shocked and grateful anyone would want to learn their language they are probably over-indulgent.

My goal is to read Death in Venice and The Red and the Black in the original.

[North Star]

Seems like this should be able to apply to everyone, since reading is always the easiest thing to do in second language, even Chinese.

Yes. Perhaps this is a result of the way we tend to learn languages, though - I wonder what would happen if foreign language classes would begin with just oral & aural immersion - obviously it would take time, but children speak their mother tongue relatively well after a few years, and adults would surely learn faster than a newborn.

[Ken B]

Yes. Perhaps this is a result of the way we tend to learn languages, though - I wonder what would happen if foreign language classes would begin with just oral & aural immersion - obviously it would take time, but children speak their mother tongue relatively well after a few years, and adults would surely learn faster than a newborn.

No. Children would learn better, and faster. There is no doubt about this at all.
It's even true of just the phonetics. As an adult you have lost the ability to produce and even hear some phonemes, and are impaired at many others.

[EigenUser]

Seems like this should be able to apply to everyone, since reading is always the easiest thing to do in second language, even Chinese.

This isn't totally related, but I feel like sharing anyways.

That reminds me of one of my best friends. Last year, we had a weekly heat transfer class from 5-7:30PM. We both liked the topic and the professor, but any lecture gets boring after two and a half hours. For fun (elective), he was taking an intro Chinese class and when he got bored, he'd start practicing writing characters on worksheets from his class. By the end of the lecture he'd have lines and lines of the same few characters . I can't imagine trying to remember the stuff he was working on.

[North Star]

No. Children would learn better, and faster. There is no doubt about this at all.
It's even true of just the phonetics. As an adult you have lost the ability to produce and even hear some phonemes, and are impaired at many others.

Take a newborn Japanese and an American who's 20 years and just started to learn Japanese. See after a year who knows more Japanese.
Anyway, my point was that we read foreign languages better than we write or speak in them because our studying of them tends to be reading books.

[Papy Oli]

I'm currently taking a crack at learning French

Bonne chance Geo Dude, I sympathize on the grammar front. Our grammar is a really tough cookie.

Down the line or just to train your ear to everyday French, you could try French news channel like :

BFM TV : http://www.bfmtv.com/video/bfmtv/direct/

I-TELE : http://www.itele.fr/direct

[Ken B]

Bonne chance Geo Dude, I sympathize on the grammar front. Our grammar is a really tough cookie.

Down the line or just to train your ear to everyday French, you could try French news channel like :

BFM TV : http://www.bfmtv.com/video/bfmtv/direct/

I-TELE : http://www.itele.fr/direct

French grammar is complicated, but it has a logic to it. The rules for verb tenses and moods, while irksome to master, are really quite logical. English suffers from the lack of a subjunctive, which has withered away over time. It's the damned gender, worse in German, that is really a pain.

[North Star]

[EigenUser]

In orchestra in college, our conductor (jokingly, of course) embarrassed all of the male violists. We were rehearsing the Bartok "Dance Suite" and Bartok is meticulous about using correct gender for different instruments in writing out sheet music. There's a viola solo towards the end of the piece and it was marked "sola" instead of "solo". Someone (not knowing this) asked him why and he said "it's a girly instrument" or something like that.

[North Star]

In orchestra in college, our conductor (jokingly, of course) embarrassed all of the male violists. We were rehearsing the Bartok "Dance Suite" and Bartok is meticulous about using correct gender for different instruments in writing out sheet music. There's a viola solo towards the end of the piece and it was marked "sola" instead of "solo". Someone (not knowing this) asked him why and he said "it's a girly instrument" or something like that.

Only logical, seeing how it's bigger and has lower range than a violin. 

[Ken B]

In orchestra in college, our conductor (jokingly, of course) embarrassed all of the male violists. We were rehearsing the Bartok "Dance Suite" and Bartok is meticulous about using correct gender for different instruments in writing out sheet music. There's a viola solo towards the end of the piece and it was marked "sola" instead of "solo". Someone (not knowing this) asked him why and he said "it's a girly instrument" or something like that.

insert oboe joke here.

[ibanezmonster]

Take a newborn Japanese and an American who's 20 years and just started to learn Japanese. See after a year who knows more Japanese.

Though this can be very hard to compare, since everything really depends on how much time the American would put into studying Japanese. If they studied a lot, they can learn faster; otherwise, they'll be like me and still suck after 13 years, since I've spent many years in between not studying at all. 

Ken might be having in mind the myth that some people promote: that you can just absorb a language just by being in the environment. Sure, you can to a certain extent, but unless you are an exception, you won't learn the language by being passive. A baby will learn much more than you will in the first 3 years. Many people that teach English in Japan never actually learn the language after being there a few years if they don't have time to study it when they get home, for example.

Anyway, my point was that we read foreign languages better than we write or speak in them because our studying of them tends to be reading books.

I'm glad everyone picked up on this point so I didn't have to explain. 
(and the other point I didn't mention was that you have all the time in the world to look up definitions for a written word, but speech isn't quite the same, since even if you're watching something and pause it, it can be hard to understand exactly how to spell what is being said if you don't know the word in the first place).