Classical Labels: The Reputable and The Pirates

[George]

On the old forum we had been gathering a list of labels that were reputable and those that were pirated. Gurn had asked me about it recently and I had trouble finding it, as I thought we had already transferred it over here. Turns out we hadn't, so I have pasted the most recent updated list below for Gurn and others. Feel free to make comments and I will update the list when necessary.

The old thread can be found here.

The Good

Marston, APR, Pearl, VAI, Arbiter, Music & Arts, Testament, Biddulph
BBC Legends
Naxos Historical
Brilliant Classics
Le Chant Du Monde, Praga- Mixed, though for Richter its legit
Centaur
Orfeo
Archiv
Tahra, Preiser, Opus Kura, Dutton, Symposium
Live Classics
Vanguard
Metronome
Vox (to date, exclusively LP)
Parnassus (though source material is very early 50's and quite primitive)


The Bad (Pirated)

Piano Library, Iron Needle, Grammofono 2000, Istituto Discografico Italiano, Classica d'Oro, Urania, Archipel
Opera d'Oro, Andromeda, Documents, Arkadia, Dante, Strings.
Memories
AS Disc
Ermitage
Intaglio
Eterna
Nuova Era
Stradivarius (most are pirate but one or two discs are late studio recordings [Bach] in which Richter gave his blessing to release)
TIM

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, George!

I would add TIM to the Bad List... and now I can go back and find the ones I had questions about that don't appear in your lists. There's a million of 'em out there!   For now, I have restricted my purchases to M & A and Tahra. But I notice that Hännsler and their subsidiary Profil appear to have an historical branch too. Also, I would wonder if someone is pirating not only some music but even a brand name, since I see Stradivarius on your pirate list, and I know them to be a reputable company that makes original recordings (good ones too, nearly always on period instruments).

Anyway, I am happy to see some input here, and from anyone else either. Doing a search today on "pirate" I came up with 30 or 40 scattered posts, many recent, on just that concern.



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Now playing:
Consortium Classicum & Academy of St Martin-in-the-Field - Kozeluch WoO Sinfonia concertante in Eb for Piano, Mandolin, Trumpet & Bass 1st mvmt - Allegro

[George]

Thanks, George!

I would add TIM to the Bad List...

Done! 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Thanks, George.

Though AS Disc is on both lists. But they're one of those bad ol' labels.

[Todd]

The Bad (Pirated)
Stradivarius (most are pirate but one or two discs are late studio recordings [Bach] in which Richter gave his blessing to release)

How did you determine Stradivarius is a pirate label?  They make a lot of new recordings and operate a net presence that also sells other label recordings.

[Gurn Blanston]

How did you determine Stradivarius is a pirate label?  They make a lot of new recordings and operate a net presence that also sells other label recordings.

...Also, I would wonder if someone is pirating not only some music but even a brand name, since I see Stradivarius on your pirate list, and I know them to be a reputable company that makes original recordings (good ones too, nearly always on period instruments)...

Maybe the fact that they are an Italian company set someone started down the wrong path.    Or maybe my surmise is true. I know for a fact that there is a fine record label out there named Stradivarius. However, I don't know that there isn't a pirate label using their name.




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Now playing:
Hélène Schmitt (Violin) / Gervreau, Alain (Cello) / Jansen, Jan (Clavecin) - BWV Anh II #153 Sonata in A for Violin & BC 3rd mvmt - Adagio

[Todd]

However, I don't know that there isn't a pirate label using their name.

Could be.  I'm also perplexed by the inclusion of Nuova Era on the list since they have in the past produced new recordings (Demus' Schumann and Ciccolini's late LvB on a Fazioli jump to mind).  Perhaps the company is dead and has been brought back in another guise, or perhaps they changed strategy, or perhaps someone is marketing under their name, who knows?  And why is Opera d'Oro a "pirate" label?  They have released new remasters of works out of copyright, for instance, and they also reissue various broadcasts that otherwise are not issued.

George, what evidence do you have that Stradivarius, Nuova Era, and Opera d'Oro are pirate labels?  Do you have any insights as to the contractual relationships they have with owners of the recordings? 

[George]

If you have questions about specific entries, I refer you to my original post:

On the old forum we had been gathering a list of labels that were reputable and those that were pirated. Gurn had asked me about it recently and I had trouble finding it, as I thought we had already transferred it over here. Turns out we hadn't, so I have pasted the most recent updated list below for Gurn and others. Feel free to make comments and I will update the list when necessary.

The old thread can be found here.

The old thread should provide more info. Beyond that, I cannot help, as I am not an expert on this subject. I merely compiled the list from suggestions made by members. It is those members whom folks should inquire with for any verification. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

George, what evidence do you have that Stradivarius, Nuova Era, and Opera d'Oro are pirate labels?  Do you have any insights as to the contractual relationships they have with owners of the recordings?

Hold on...I think I can sort all this out...

If memory serves, this list first came into being as a way to distinguish between legit and pirate RICHTER recordings. Nothing more. It then expanded as other posters chimed in with helpful info regarding this label or that and subsequently evolved beyond Richter.

As far as Stradivarius and Nuova Era are concerned, their RICHTER releases (with the disclaimer I listed above regarding Stradivarius) actually WERE pirate. They were releasing unauthorized recordings of Richter concerts, hence pirate.

It is true that both Stradivarius and Nuova Era at the time were making sporadic new recordings in the studio but that didn't mean that their pirate RICHTER operations fled the building. Too much potential $$ for that!

[Todd]

They were releasing unauthorized recordings of Richter concerts, hence pirate.

Out of curiosity, how was this verified?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Out of curiosity, how was this verified?

Let me answer that question with a question, Todd. When was the last time I made a GMG pronouncement that had it's origins in hyperbole?

If you can name it then I'll oblige you with an answer.

IOW, if you want dialog let's talk. If you want a spitting contest look somewhere else.

[Todd]

Let me answer that question with a question, Todd. When was the last time I made a GMG pronouncement that had it's origins in hyperbole?

Curious, I wasn't going on about hyperbolic claims, but rather inquiring as to how the pirate status of the Richter recordings in question was verified.  Given your response, I must assume it was not verified.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Curious, I wasn't going on about hyperbolic claims, but rather inquiring as to how the pirate status of the Richter recordings in question was verified.  Given your response, I must assume it was not verified.

Oh...heavens...you were "rather inquiring" info from me...how could I possibly have misinterpreted......

[Todd]

Oh...heavens...you were "rather inquiring" info from me...how could I possibly have misinterpreted......

Boy, you sure are testy and defensive, and you offer no support for your claim. 

Whenever I see claims of pirate recordings I'm always interested in how people know the recordings are pirated.  Are such people involved in contract negotiations?  Are they close to the artist, or to the label?  What concrete evidence exists?  Also, I'm curious if an artist's authorization is significant in all cases.  An artist - Richter or anyone else - may not want a recording released, but does that necessarily mean that they have the right to prevent release?  Ownership of a recording can change for multiple reasons, which complicates things further.  So I like to determine how someone knows a recording is pirated.  There are many subject matter experts online; I ask only for some evidence.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Boy, you sure are testy and defensive, and you offer no support for your claim.

Todd, you could make Mother Teresa testy!! 

Whenever I see claims of pirate recordings I'm always interested in how people know the recordings are pirated.  Are such people involved in contract negotiations?  Are they close to the artist, or to the label?  What concrete evidence exists? Also, I'm curious if an artist's authorization is significant in all cases.  An artist - Richter or anyone else - may not want a recording released, but does that necessarily mean that they have the right to prevent release?  Ownership of a recording can change for multiple reasons, which complicates things further.  So I like to determine how someone knows a recording is pirated.  There are many subject matter experts online; I ask only for some evidence.

Well, I would think that what's beyond question, legal-wise, is that media broadcasts of concerts/sporting events/whatever are the legitimate property of whatever institution is broadcasting the event (we hear disclaimers to this effect all the time). Which means issuing a broadcast that doesn't belong to you - for profit - is pirating...and of course illegal. And that's what many of Richter recordings are. Verification of this lies in the reams of literature and correspondence in the public domain, not to mention the discs themselves: if a record label issues a recording which originates from the BBC - and it ISN'T a BBC product (or at least licensed) - it's pirate! 

And I'm not sure exactly WHY I would need to be "involved in [the] contract negotiations" or "close to the artist/label" to comprehend this. (?)

When it comes to "artist approval", when an artist is steadfastly resistant to having a concert recorded, to the point of religious fervor, then what outside individual (in whatever capacity) has the right to override this desire? And I'm not even talking about broadcasts, here. Profiteering is a dirty business and artists have the right to rebel against this.

[mc ukrneal]

I must admit to some confusion (actually, a heck of a lot of confusion). Opera d'oro, for example, has no Richter offerings that I can see (I did a search for them in the allegro site), and I was not aware that the opera performances they do issue were considered pirate. I wonder if they should be on the list. When the Krauss ring was released by them a number of years ago, I did not read (for example) that there were issues that might make this a pirate recording. This was recently released again on Orfeo (on the good list), although it had previous incarnations from Archipel (on the bad list) and Gala (not on any list).

But because of different laws across the world, even this is not so simple as those of us remember from the inital Naxos Historical label dispute. But that is far more straight forward situation to me than many of these other labels, where I haven't a clue as to why they are being labeled pirate or not (although a history behind it certainly helps where available). And I wonder if (consciously or not) some are being black balled for personal reasons (or vice versa), whether here or elsewhere.

What is the term 'pirate' referring to anyway? My assumption is that it is illegal recordings (those made without permission) at a concert and subsequently released for sale. Alternatively, I suppose it could be recordings from other labels that are still under license, but here I would think that there would be lawsuits and such if it was done regularly. Perhaps there are a number of recordings that have some sort of quasi-legal status? Anything in which the copyright has expired (and said recording has entered the public domain) would aslo seem not to be an issue. Or are there issues here too?

If an artist is against a recording, but the company has a legal claim to it (that is recognized or would be recognized by the legal system), why would this be a pirate recording?

I see this can be a contentios issue. My post is meant for my greater understanding, so I hope no one will take offense at anything I might have written, but rather, will help educate me on a subject that I find confusing.

EDIT: Looking at the thread on the original forum, it seems that some labels found their way onto the list due to poor sonics or overall packaging (Opera d'Oro generally is weaker at this, for example). The list there does not seem to me to be one of pirates and non-pirates (at least not entirely). So I wonder if this list can be used for that purpose here, which as titled, is purely pirates or not pirates. 

[Gurn Blanston]

This little editorial is on the Music & Arts website. Although I pirated it, in this case I don't think they will mind.

Hall of Shame

We urge you  not to buy the product of   "labels" that undermine the precarious existence of the small independent record companies whose treasures (in many cases issued with the kind cooperation of the artists' families or students, and re-engineered at great cost) they have pillaged.

We ask all our friends to boycott various European "labels" featuring mainly (and in some cases exclusively) material shamelessly copied from CDs produced at considerable expense from original materials by Pearl, Biddulph, VAI, Tahra, APR, The Metropolitan Opera, The Chicago Symphony, The New York Philharmonic, and ourselves. These "labels", among them Iron Needle, Grammofono 2000, Lys, Dante, Arlecchino, Enterprise, Piano Library, Strings, etc., aggressively flood the world market with what are demonstrably copies of original productions by the above-named historical labels as well as by various Societies devoted to certain artists. The notorious activities of the copy-cats, and the damage they cause in terms of drastic losses in sales to the reputable historic labels, has been noted in various critical articles by Henry Fogel and Mortimer H. Frank in Fanfare magazine, on the internet and  in various statements by such well known industry figures as audio engineer Mark Obert-Thorn, and long-time Pearl Producer and now president of Arbiter Records Allen Evans. Critic and Reiner biographer Philip Hart has voiced similar complaints in a recent issue of ARSC Journal, and a full page exposé aimed primarily at Lys/Dante/Arlecchino appeared in the first issue of the Gramophone publication, International Piano Quarterly.

Commenting on this deplorable situation in the January/February 1999 issue of Fanfare, audio engineer Mark Obert-Thorn wrote in a letter to the editor:

" I would not be surprised if it [the Dante/Lys Moyse disc] had been taken from my Pearl release, as they have pilfered my transfers before. (For example, several tracks on their two-CD Frederick Stock/Chicago Symphony 'Pops Concert' set were clearly lifted from my two-CD Stock retrospective on Biddulph). Nor is Dante alone in this sort of activity. In your July/August issue (p.339), Leslie Gerber writes enthusiastically about a two-disc Stokowski/Philadelphia Wagner Ring Syntheses collection on Grammofono 2000, congratulating the Italian producer and engineers by name for the 'outstanding quality of the transfers.'   The only trouble is, the transfers were mine, taken from a virtually identically programmed Pearl two-CD set.

"This wholesale piracy is now so widespread that my transfer of the 1934 Stokowski/Philadelphia Beethoven Ninth on Music & Arts has been pirated by both Grammofono and Magic Talent (the latter of which has also appropriated my Toscanni/New York Philharmonic transfers from a Pearl three-CD set, and issued them on separate CDs priced at a fraction of the cost of the originals). Prospective purchasers who think these are a bargain should be aware that pirate labels generally put the original transfers through various computerized noise-reduction process with a crude and heavy hand, often adding artificial reverberation and fake stereo effects.

"The long-term downside of activities like this is that labels that take care in producing transfers of historical material are finding it increasingly difficult to bring out new releases. Recently, one of the firms I work for turned down my suggestions for doing more Stokowski/Philadelphia transfers, citing confusion among consumers regarding their releases and those from 'Italy and points east.' In a kind of Gresham's Law of transfers: Good reissues are being driven out by bad copies.  One wonders from whom the pirates will steal, once the labels they've plundered have been forced out of business."

[George]

Great article, Gurn! Nice find.

[Brahmsian]

On the old forum we had been gathering a list of labels that were reputable and those that were pirated. Gurn had asked me about it recently and I had trouble finding it, as I thought we had already transferred it over here. Turns out we hadn't, so I have pasted the most recent updated list below for Gurn and others. Feel free to make comments and I will update the list when necessary.

The old thread can be found here.

The Good

Marston, APR, Pearl, VAI, Arbiter, Music & Arts, Testament, Biddulph
BBC Legends
Naxos Historical
Brilliant Classics
Le Chant Du Monde, Praga- Mixed, though for Richter its legit
Centaur
Orfeo
Archiv
Tahra, Preiser, Opus Kura, Dutton, Symposium
Live Classics
Vanguard
Metronome
Vox (to date, exclusively LP)
Parnassus (though source material is very early 50's and quite primitive)


The Bad (Pirated)

Piano Library, Iron Needle, Grammofono 2000, Istituto Discografico Italiano, Classica d'Oro, Urania, Archipel
Opera d'Oro, Andromeda, Documents, Arkadia, Dante, Strings.
Memories
AS Disc
Ermitage
Intaglio
Eterna
Nuova Era
Stradivarius (most are pirate but one or two discs are late studio recordings [Bach] in which Richter gave his blessing to release)
TIM

From the list of the bad, are we to assume that all of the recordings of the 'bad' are pirated, or only certain ones?

[Todd]

and it ISN'T a BBC product (or at least licensed) - it's pirate! 

When it comes to "artist approval", when an artist is steadfastly resistant to having a concert recorded, to the point of religious fervor, then what outside individual (in whatever capacity) has the right to override this desire?

To the first selected point, how do you know what has or hasn't been licensed?  How does anyone on this forum, really, in any but the most blatant cases?  To know, one has to be involved with the transaction or the involved parties.  Merely stating that label X issued a BBC recording that doesn't include a "licensed by" disclaimer doesn't prove pirating at all.  Relying on various internet sources - which is what I gather you mean by "public domain" - may or may not result in a totally accurate picture of the status of a recording.

Now, if TIM, for instance, were reissue Leonard Bernstein's 1960s Mahler recordings at $1 a disc, one could fairly reasonably assume such a recording is a pirate.  Sony would also most likely pursue legal remedies.  Sony, as a rule, tends to be protective of intellectual property.  Likewise, if another label takes a Pearl transfer and simply repackages it without permission, that can be considered outright pirating.  Pearl may or may not pursue legal remedies.  But how about with a source like the BBC or other radio stations, or other sources.  How does the consumer or observer know if the recording was sold or not, or licensed or not, or if copyright protection extends to the source material?  The consumer or observer does not know.  Sorry, that's the way it is. 

As to the second point, the owner of the recording has the legal right to override the artist's desire.  Every time.  That's the way it should be.  Property rights trump artistic desire.  It may be bad business in the long run to release every recording, but that's another issue.