Difficulty of being yourself and happiness

[71 dB]

After several years on this discussion board I have realized some things concerning personal happiness and what (classical) music means to me. I want to write about these things and to see if any of it makes sense to other people on this board.

For long before I came on this forum (actually the old one but that doesn't matter), I was VERY confident about myself and how I listen to classical music. In sort, I felt good. Classical music meant happiness for me. It enriched my life enormously. I felt connected with the music. I used to buy lots of cheap Naxos CDs and they gave me plenty of pleasure for the money. I also bought releases by other labels but only if cases when Naxos didn't have what I wanted in their catalog (e.g. German middle baroque). I didn't worry too much about the performances and digital Naxos sound (engineering) is good most of the time. I enjoyed the music and it was great fun to explore less known composers at Naxos price. The only thing that disturbed my happiness was the frustration while waiting Naxos to release my favorite classical music (Buxtehude, Fauré's chamber music, etc.) My Elgar collection is built mostly of other labels and I wonder if Naxos will ever record The Apostles and The Kingdoms not to mention many many other Elgar works.

Then I registered here (the old forum). I hoped to find people with same wavelength and to widen my horizon of classical music. Well, what did happen?

First of all I noticed how much people talk about performances in stead of music itself. This got me confused. So, the point of listening to Moonlight Sonata isn't the music but how Brendel plays it? What's worse, there isn't strong consensus whether Brendel's performance is excellent or not. Some people talk about old recordings with crappy mono sound. Many of the praised recordings are OOP meaning ridiculous price if found anywhere. Naxos didn't seem to fit anywhere in this. I didn't feel to fit.

Some discussions about Elgar and other music near my heart gave me (false) impression that I fit in here. I wrote openly about my theories about classical music from Beethoven's lacking orchestration skills to vibrational fields. The result was to being labeled a nut-case who has no clue about music.

As a result of the things above I lost self-confidence and my relation to classical music got complex. I bought less Naxos CDs and more releases praised here. I got nervous about my purchases. What if it isn't the best? Should I have bought the other one recommended? To be honest I have bought many brilliant CDs thanks to the advices of members of this board but at the same time the fun of exploring dissappeared. Buying classical music became serious work! For long I didn't understand this chance. I lost my job at the time so I didn't see part of my unhappiness was due to this board.

When I saw what had happened I started to keep some distance to this forum. I got less active. I started to ignore things. I had to find again my own way. I must start believing myself again. It means happiness. So, I started to buy Naxos CDs again. Many of the older ones are very cheap. I have bought almost all Bach's organ works played by Rübsam. I like the playing and the sound engineering. Surely there are better recordings available but I don't care. I just enjoy these cheap wonderful CDs! I have ordered Naxos disc of Janácek's, Beethoven's and Schubert's music. I am really getting into Schubert. There are also lot's of Beethoven I haven't explored. I am planning to buy more Mendelssohn and Berlioz too. The exploring feels exiting again. I feel much happier. I just need to ignore what other people say and believe myself, let myself do things my way. It doesn't matter if I do something "wrong" as long as I am happy.

This post sounds bitter but many things in life are bitter, aren't they?

[Grazioso]

I suppose it depends, in part, how much baggage with which you freight music. For me, music (listening to, reading about, collecting, playing) is ultimately just a fun way to pass the time, and it doesn't inherently carry any weight beyond that. It's just a hobby. Therefore I listen to what I want, when I want, and how I want, without feeling the need to justify it to anyone--including myself.

There's a danger in trying to fit the world--including your emotional responses and activities--into abstract concepts, instead of the other way around. That's like razing a hill with a pleasant view or digging a winding trench through a suburb to make sure the territory fits a map instead of just fixing the map--or chucking it.

And don't worry about what other people think or do. Some may have useful insights, but many are fools who can't manage the basics of their own lives, let alone provide you with the best way for you to approach classical music.

[Szykneij]

My advice: Opinions are opinions. Nothing more. Don't feel you always need to agree with others and don't expect others to always agree with you. But ignoring what other people say isn't the way to go. Consider different opinions and try to understand alternative points of view. Then you can feel confident and content in accepting or rejecting those ideas

[mc ukrneal]

After several years on this discussion board I have realized some things concerning personal happiness and what (classical) music means to me. I want to write about these things and to see if any of it makes sense to other people on this board.

...

As a result of the things above I lost self-confidence and my relation to classical music got complex. I bought less Naxos CDs and more releases praised here. I got nervous about my purchases. What if it isn't the best? Should I have bought the other one recommended? To be honest I have bought many brilliant CDs thanks to the advices of members of this board but at the same time the fun of exploring dissappeared. Buying classical music became serious work! For long I didn't understand this chance. I lost my job at the time so I didn't see part of my unhappiness was due to this board.

When I saw what had happened I started to keep some distance to this forum. I got less active. I started to ignore things. I had to find again my own way. I must start believing myself again. It means happiness. So, I started to buy Naxos CDs again. Many of the older ones are very cheap. I have bought almost all Bach's organ works played by Rübsam. I like the playing and the sound engineering. Surely there are better recordings available but I don't care. I just enjoy these cheap wonderful CDs! I have ordered Naxos disc of Janácek's, Beethoven's and Schubert's music. I am really getting into Schubert. There are also lot's of Beethoven I haven't explored. I am planning to buy more Mendelssohn and Berlioz too. The exploring feels exiting again. I feel much happier. I just need to ignore what other people say and believe myself, let myself do things my way. It doesn't matter if I do something "wrong" as long as I am happy.

This post sounds bitter but many things in life are bitter, aren't they?

71dB - A lot to think about. I can empathize with much of it too. Let me start with the end: If being here doesn't enrich your life or bring you happiness, then I would consider changing behavior (coming here less, reading certain threads and not others, etc). We all must do what is best for us in life and only you know what that is for yourself.

When I first started collecting, I too always wanted the 'best' recording of everything. But as time has gone on, I've realized that 'best' is relative. There is, in fact, no 'best', but only right or wrong of each person. What I have come to realize is that all I need is a good version or better - one that fairly reproduces what the composer put to paper. In this sense, many questions that concern people are irrelevant (HIP, edited versions, sound, etc.). The only question is - do you like it? If you do, the rest of the discussion is just background chatter. Sometimes this means ignoring people who claim to be 'experts' and who have heard all 250 versions and have concluded which is best. In fact, this does the music a dis-service I would say. Rather than claim one the best, one should celebrate the wonderful qualities of those recordings that one prefers. Instead, it sometimes turns into a contest, which is a waste of time really.

Naxos is an excellent classical company. They put out many good discs. Few in their collection are out and out duds. That is actually the case of most music published today. Thus, if you like Naxos and the discs bring pleasure (and they should), then it seems to me you have a great solution for yourself. Others may not agree, but that is their problem not yours. In fact, I rather envy the fairly inexpensive way you will be able to explore the world of classical music!  But don't lose the excitement of buying different either - more than likely it will be wonderful.

Many people enjoy discussing which version  is better, but perhaps that isn't of interest to you. I prefer to buy works I don't have before repeating works I do have (unless I don't like the one I have for whatever reason). But I have permitted myself (as a test) to buy multiple versions of four works: Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony 5, Beethoven Op 109 (sonata 30), and Puccini's La Boheme. The biggest lesson I have learned from this is just how many wonderful versions of the works are actually out there!!! As I said before, there are very, very few that simply have nothing to say or add. And this has helped me realize that when someone recommends just one version as 'best' that does not mean the others are no good or even perhaps as good or better. This is just their opinion and nothing more. 

I think a lot of people don't ask enough questions of why a certain version is recommended. So far the bi-weekly threads have not led to as much a discussion of the music itself (as I would like). And unfortunately, we have started with works I am not able to add so much to. For that reason, I have been thinking of starting a detailed thread on one of the works above the takes a look at the how the different versions change the impact of the music rather than which version is best. If you ask me, which Beethoven op 109 is best, I don't even know what to answer. But if you were to ask for some good versions to buy, I'd immediately have multiple versions to recommend (for different reasons), which could lead to a discussion of what the music says and how it could be played.

To sum up, this is not worth getting stressed about. Go have fun, whatever that means for you!!

[Henk]

Agree. It's much here about the performance instead of the music itself, so the music itself can get less attention, so less pleasure of listening to it, because while listening ones asks "is this performance good", "isn't there a better performance available?" and that question is in principle a negative question, instead of concentrating on the music.

I agree this is a bad thing. It can make listening to classical music more complex and take enjoyment away (I use the word "enjoyment", but for me in fact listening to music is not really enjoyment, but more an inspiring kind of thing). But there are ways of coping with it. Just don't care to much about the performance, just listen to a performance and see if you just can enjoy that.

When one thinks that listening to a better performance one can enjoy the music more, this is false imo. One enjoys the performance more not the music itself. There's just a feeling of refreshment hearing some composition again in a new, maybe more artistic performance. There's no greater connection to the music. For people here who always are busy getting other performances of the same work, and comparing them, it's just the pleasure of refinement. Nothing wrong with it, but it can be disturbing, when this refinement seems to be goal.

Be aware that performing is an art as well. So one should get rid of the distinction of "good performances" and "bad performances" in the sense that a performer interprets the music better. There is just one interpretation possible (so there are "wrong performances"), but this interpretation can be expressed in many ways, depending on the art of the performer. This performing art is secondary, the composing is primary.

Is there anybody here who likes a work of music but just doesn't like it when played by a particular performer, on the precondition he / she interprets the work well?

Henk

[71 dB]

For me, music is ultimately just a fun way to pass the time, and it doesn't inherently carry any weight beyond that. It's just a hobby. Therefore I listen to what I want, when I want, and how I want, without feeling the need to justify it to anyone--including myself.

Pretty much the same for me. My post hinted that reading this board made me justify things to myself and that's where I went wrong.

And don't worry about what other people think or do. Some may have useful insights, but many are fools who can't manage the basics of their own lives, let alone provide you with the best way for you to approach classical music.

Yes, sometimes there are excellent insights offered here but it's important to "filter" much out.

My advice: Opinions are opinions. Nothing more. Don't feel you always need to agree with others and don't expect others to always agree with you. But ignoring what other people say isn't the way to go. Consider different opinions and try to understand alternative points of view. Then you can feel confident and content in accepting or rejecting those ideas

Yes. I agree with this.  Internet makes (often stupid) opinions look shattering statements and that's silly.

[71 dB]

71dB - A lot to think about. I can empathize with much of it too. Let me start with the end: If being here doesn't enrich your life or bring you happiness, then I would consider changing behavior (coming here less, reading certain threads and not others, etc). We all must do what is best for us in life and only you know what that is for yourself.

I do come here less nowadays.

When I first started collecting, I too always wanted the 'best' recording of everything. But as time has gone on, I've realized that 'best' is relative. There is, in fact, no 'best', but only right or wrong of each person. What I have come to realize is that all I need is a good version or better - one that fairly reproduces what the composer put to paper. In this sense, many questions that concern people are irrelevant (HIP, edited versions, sound, etc.). The only question is - do you like it? If you do, the rest of the discussion is just background chatter. Sometimes this means ignoring people who claim to be 'experts' and who have heard all 250 versions and have concluded which is best. In fact, this does the music a dis-service I would say. Rather than claim one the best, one should celebrate the wonderful qualities of those recordings that one prefers. Instead, it sometimes turns into a contest, which is a waste of time really.

I often wonder how people can have so many versions. I have multiple versions of many Elgar works (no wonder as he is my favorite composer). I also have multiple versions of works by other composers. But I don't have 10 versions or more of any work. Sometimes it seems people are trying to "prove" the version(s) somebody else has and likes is/are crappy. 

Naxos is an excellent classical company. They put out many good discs. Few in their collection are out and out duds. That is actually the case of most music published today. Thus, if you like Naxos and the discs bring pleasure (and they should), then it seems to me you have a great solution for yourself. Others may not agree, but that is their problem not yours. In fact, I rather envy the fairly inexpensive way you will be able to explore the world of classical music!  But don't lose the excitement of buying different either - more than likely it will be wonderful.

Yes, especially the newer Naxos discs are great. Even if some CDs aren't good, they offer cheap way to explore. 

Many people enjoy discussing which version is better, but perhaps that isn't of interest to you. I prefer to buy works I don't have before repeating works I do have (unless I don't like the one I have for whatever reason). But I have permitted myself (as a test) to buy multiple versions of four works: Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony 5, Beethoven Op 109 (sonata 30), and Puccini's La Boheme. The biggest lesson I have learned from this is just how many wonderful versions of the works are actually out there!!! As I said before, there are very, very few that simply have nothing to say or add. And this has helped me realize that when someone recommends just one version as 'best' that does not mean the others are no good or even perhaps as good or better. This is just their opinion and nothing more.

I have only one Marriage of Figaro (170 CD Mozart box by Brilliant Classics) and Beethoven Op. 109 (Brautigam/BIS). The other two I don't have at all. I like BIS and Brautigam playing so I went to expensive BIS SACD instead of Naxos. I don't like Mozart's operas but the work was included in the hypercheap set.

[71 dB]

Agree. It's much here about the performance instead of the music itself, so the music itself can get less attention, so less pleasure of listening to it, because while listening ones asks "is this performance good", "isn't there a better performance available?" and that question is in principle a negative question, instead of concentrating on the music.

Exactly. Things get serious instead of fun and relaxed.

I agree this is a bad thing. It can make listening to classical music more complex and take enjoyment away (I use the word "enjoyment", but for me in fact listening to music is not really enjoyment, but more an inspiring kind of thing). But there are ways of coping with it. Just don't care to much about the performance, just listen to a performance and see if you just can enjoy that.

I am definitely going back to this practise, the one I had when I found classical music back in the 90's.

When one thinks that listening to a better performance one can enjoy the music more, this is false imo. One enjoys the performance more not the music itself. There's just a feeling of refreshment hearing some composition again in a new, maybe more artistic performance. There's no greater connection to the music. For people here who always are busy getting other performances of the same work, and comparing them, it's just the pleasure of refinement. Nothing wrong with it, but it can be disturbing, when this refinement seems to be goal.

I am an acoustics engineer and for me sound quality is somewhat important. I want the performance to be good enough to reveal what the music has to offer.

Be aware that performing is an art as well. So one should get rid of the distinction of "good performances" and "bad performances" in the sense that a performer interprets the music better. There is just one interpretation possible (so there are "wrong performances"), but this interpretation can be expressed in many ways, depending on the art of the performer. This performing art is secondary, the composing is primary.

That's why I like Naxos' approach where the works are number one and performers are secondary but important too.

Is there anybody here who likes a work of music but just doesn't like it when played by a particular performer, on the precondition he / she interprets the work well?

Henk

The instrument can be important too. Some people want Bach played on harpsichord only and some people hate the sound of pianoforte.

[Mirror Image]

I wouldn't listen to what the naysayers say, because they will always be there dishing out one negative comment after another one. Many people here may think I'm crazy too for whatever reason, but I really don't care. There are some good people here. You just have to weed through some of the bad weeds to get to the flowers. As a collector, I have to say that the music comes first and the performance comes second. If I didn't love the music, then why would I even invest my money and time into getting multiple performances of the same work? Not everybody here cares about the same things, so with that said, I can understand why some importance is placed on performance. We all obviously connect with the music or we wouldn't be here, but I think certain performances bring out qualities that we all like about the music and some don't. Like, for example, you may own 20 different recordings of Beethoven's 9th, but there are only 4 recordings that appeal to you. These other recordings aren't wrong and somebody wouldn't be wrong in liking them, but it's all a matter of what you connect with.


People here may not like my tastes in classical music, but I don't let them alter my opinion and what I love about these composer's music. You just have to learn how to take an opinion with a grain of salt.

[DavidRoss]

Many record collectors visit this site and enjoy discussing the merits of different recordings.  Others enjoy discussing different approaches to performance--Hip v Big Band, cool technician v fiery romantic, etc.  Others enjoy discussing their favorite composers and learning about "new" ones.  Some have axes to grind.  Some enjoy the convivial companionship.  Others like posing as internet experts and propounding their beliefs about everything ranging from vibrational fields to the provenance of Mozart's compositions.

No one is obliged to visit the site, to read every thread or poster, or to respond to every comment.  All kinds of people are members, from music professionals to folks just beginning to discover classical music.  The range of musical and other knowledge is equally broad.  Many of us enjoy the diversity among members and their opinions.  Some attempt to be totalitarians of taste, seeking to impose their views on others rather than to enjoy the differences among us.

I came here initially to learn about composers unknown to me whose music I might enjoy and about performers and recordings that might enhance my appreciation.  I keep coming back (despite the occasional hiatus) because I've found all that and more: one of the friendliest, warmest, most companionable internet communities I've ever encountered.  And one of the most tolerant and accepting.

If controversy and conflict with your stated opinions is not something you can suffer with equanimity, yet you still wish to participate here, then you should avoid challenging certain orthodoxies:  (1) Do not suggest that capitalism has virtues or that socialism has flaws; (2) do not suggest that reasonable and intelligent people may believe in God or benefit from religious practices; (3) do not insist that musical opinions grounded in ignorance have as much weight and validity as informed views grounded in fact, or that you, personally, should be recognized as some kind of higher authority whose tastes determine an objective reality to which all should defer.

To the best of my knowledge during his years here the OP has not strayed from the prevailing orthodoxy regarding points 1 & 2; however, he ought examine his own behavior in relation to point 3 before taking the GMG membership to task as the source of his unhappiness with the site.

[Grazioso]

I often wonder how people can have so many versions. I have multiple versions of many Elgar works (no wonder as he is my favorite composer). I also have multiple versions of works by other composers. But I don't have 10 versions or more of any work. Sometimes it seems people are trying to "prove" the version(s) somebody else has and likes is/are crappy. 

I too wonder why anyone would want to collect dozens of versions of the same piece of classical music and belabor the often-minute differences between them. (After all, we're not talking about radically different interpretations of a jazz standard, where the tune serves as a springboard to be extensively modified.) I do have multiple versions of some music, but I'm much more interested in hearing new things than hearing the same thing played slightly differently again and again.

And yet I know that's just my preferences talking. Maybe what seems odd or suspect to me brings someone else great joy.

As for this forum as a whole, well, it's the Internet  Don't always take it seriously.

[Octo_Russ]

I often wonder how people can have so many versions. I have multiple versions of many Elgar works (no wonder as he is my favorite composer). I also have multiple versions of works by other composers. But I don't have 10 versions or more of any work. Sometimes it seems people are trying to "prove" the version(s) somebody else has and likes is/are crappy. 

When i first started collecting Classical music, i planned on only buying one disc per work, therefore i wanted the very best version, but like another poster has pointed out, there is no such thing as a best version, i found that i started to fall in love with certain works more than others, and considering it's almost impossible not to duplicate certain works, very soon i found that listening to different versions brought insights and revelations instead of duplicity.

Now i have ten discs of Chopin's Etudes [and i'll surely buy more], each performer brings something different to the table, and adds to the other nine, it's a work i love and therefore i can easily accommodate many recordings, i'm not searching for the holy grail of the ultimate Chopin Etudes on one disc, rather i love and play them all, some more than others.

I guess i could have had more breadth of different Composers and works if i only stuck to 'one disc per work', instead i went for depth of understanding the fewer works i truly love, it works for me, whatever works for you is right also, you have to find your own path, if Naxos works for you then stick to what you love, we're all different.

[snyprrr]

ArgueWithEveryone.com


Not for the faint of heart!

For everyone else, there's GMG!


Don't make me pass you the Kleenex! When I was your age we bought EVERY version of every piece until we KNEW what the best was! And this was before Naxos... you kids these days, sheesh!

But I'd stay away from that Janacek.

[drogulus]

     I love my favorite composers. No one here has harmed the joy I get from them. I have learned good and bad things about my favorites as well as a bunch of other composers, and now I have new favorites. So, I'm ahead of the game.

     Finally, Internet opinions are far more important than anything happening in your so-called real life. Why do you even have a real life, when every second you waste on it is stolen from time you could spend here learning to be miserable?

     

[Scarpia]

In the first place, if some of us describe taking pleasure from collecting different recordings of the same work, how can that prevent you from enjoying your Naxos recording?  If you don't find any difference between your Naxos recording and any others, or if you are not interested, why would you care what we prattle on about.  If you acknowledge there is some difference, why not take advantage of it?

Witnessing your participation in this site, it appears to me that your problem is that you do not distinguish between your opinions and facts, and are upset when others do not accept your opinions, even those of your opinions which are quite daft.  You don't distinguish between "Elgar is my favorite composer" and "Elgar is obviously the best composer that ever lived and those people are willfully insulting me by pretending to think that Beethoven is better." 

For me the value of this site is in several areas.  It is a place to get ideas for new composers and recordings to try.  It is a place to debate the merits of this verses that, which gives insight into why some people like what I can't abide, which might help me appreciate music that I otherwise woundn't.  And the "social" dynamics can be engaging.  And I can't resist an occasional poke at some of the self-important blow hards that wander the halls here.

[MishaK]

First of all I noticed how much people talk about performances in stead of music itself.

Truly great music is great precisely because it can sustain myriad different interpretations. Conversely, no one single interpretation can ever truly convey everything that can be found within a great piece of music. It is for these reasons that those of us, who are obsessed with this, listen to various different performances of the same pieces. It is an endless process of discovery, illuminating ever new, heretofore unknown corners or seemingly familiar works.

I wrote openly about my theories about classical music from Beethoven's lacking orchestration skills to vibrational fields.

You will always have trouble in this forum when you start talking about things that cannot be substantiated in any objective scientific way.

What if it isn't the best?

There is no such thing. See above.

I lost my job at the time so I didn't see part of my unhappiness was due to this board.

Join the club.    This economy is a biotch!

Surely there are better recordings available but I don't care. I just enjoy these cheap wonderful CDs!

Great! Good for you! That's the point.

[Scarpia]

You will always have trouble in this forum when you start talking about things that cannot be substantiated in any objective scientific way.

That seems a bit broad.  The problem is talking about things that can't be objectively substantiated as though they could, or as though they have been substantiated when they have not been.

[DavidRoss]

I like that so many of us here are kind enough to keep one another honest in a collegial way, for the sake of better understanding one another.  It's nice to be among friends who are willing to correct us or challenge our prejudices and thus help us to learn and grow.

[MishaK]

That seems a bit broad.  The problem is talking about things that can't be objectively substantiated as though they could, or as though they have been substantiated when they have not been.

I can agree with your amended version of my statement. 

[71 dB]

You will always have trouble in this forum when you start talking about things that cannot be substantiated in any objective scientific way.

Hardly anything in music can be substantiated in objective scientific way. So, it's my subjective opinion against your subjective opinion.

Join the club.    This economy is a biotch!

I left that club 3 years ago. I hate my job but at least I have a job!