If I like Ives

Mirror Image · March 03, 2011, 08:10:43 AM

Quote from: Guido. on March 03, 2011, 08:02:47 AMI do like Adams (maybe a quarter of the oeuvre is superb, half good, and a quarter is junky) and the piece is not bad, I just don't think it's that good either. Maybe I'm just hurt that Adams takes any oportunity to comment negatively on Ives' musical structures, which he says are weak and inneffectual. Obviously I disagree. Strongly.

Why would you be hurt that Adams said those things about Ives' music? It's just an opinion. I disagree with Adams, who has composed a lot of s*** compared to Ives, but you can't fault somebody for their opinion. I enjoy both composers music regardless of what they both thought of other composers.

escher · March 03, 2011, 11:34:40 AM

Quote from: Apollon on March 01, 2011, 02:45:29 AM
Ma dov'è il Ives italiano?

Scelsi?

Quote from: Grazioso on March 03, 2011, 04:49:43 AM
It's funny to hear someone even talking about any classical music having "real balls" Stylistic or formal adventurousness maybe, but balls no. I love classical music and have listened to it for decades, but compared to a lot of the more aggressive rock music or blues or soul or funk I've heard, it's all pretty tame, restrained, cerebral--and some would say effeminate.

Grazioso · March 03, 2011, 12:19:24 PM

Quote from: escher on March 03, 2011, 11:34:40 AM
cerebral it's ok, and if you say that a lot of classical music have not "groove" i'm with you (though there are exceptions). But tame, restrained, effeminate... i mean, there are stooges, new york dolls, slayer, swans, monoshock, feedtime and whoever you want but if you think that any of these pieces (few examples of the thousand possibles)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLq8h66oGt0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq1-_UPwYSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLR21wbcSnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWtHGk9ameg&feature=fvst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvELcETEtQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6soFlEZAMYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpH8H-ZuI0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMvOLepoBO8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWm7GHRvKdo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3gWZE-AZ5s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_WD3GixBo&feature=related

are tame, restrained or effeminate, well, i don't know what rock music you know

I don't personally think it's either effeminate or feminine (in the broad, symbolic sense applied to art), though in some quarters it carries the stigma of the former.

I've heard lots of classical music that is loud, fast, atonal, and/or marked by machine-like ostinati, including many of the pieces/composers you reference. I still believe that classical music on the whole is essentially rarefied and restrained, more a music of the heart and head than emanating from or arousing our "base" (think lower Chakras in Eastern philosophy) emotions. I've still yet to hear any classical music that evokes or elicits, for instance, the same exact sort of martial, frenetic aggression you can hear in, say, Slayer, to use one of your examples.

http://www.youtube.com/v/G0AGUywHntw

Sid · March 03, 2011, 02:13:15 PM

I'd also recommend some of the music of Henry Cowell, who actually edited some of Ives music. There are two great Cowell chamber discs on Naxos which I'd recommend. Some of the works are atonal & have tone clusters (like Ives), while others have a Neo-Classical feel and are not so much like Ives. BTW, Cowell influenced Bartok, the Hungarian actually wrote to him asking permission to use "Cowell's" tone clusters in his own music (& of course, Cowell was happy to give "permission"). Maybe Bartok didn't know about Ives & his earlier use of such techniques. Anyway, I digress. Cowell's The Banshee & Irish Suite are on those discs above, and they definitely give a sense of the experimentation of Ives, imo...

Cato · March 03, 2011, 03:52:51 PM

Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 02:45:33 AM
You're equating Ives with cartoon music. Dear me, he's rolling in his grave. The impetuous behind all your recommendations is doubtful too. I'd say great American musical pioneers like Conlon Nancarrow & Elliott Carter are closer to the spirit of what Ives was about, and both are undeniably & uniquely American.

Dear me, I am not equating Ives with any such thing! Please read carefully the following quote:

"But one of the best composers following the spirit of the collage-style of Ives was Carl Stalling!"

And I am not sure what you mean by "impetuous," an adjective meaning "rash." Charles Ives used quarter-tone tuning not only for the famous piano pieces, but also in his Fourth Symphony. We know he experimented with and meditated quite a bit on microtonal music:

http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=4461

Lou Harrison would be another composer linked to Ives via these ideas.

Grazioso · March 04, 2011, 04:35:35 AM

Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:17:36 PM
Reading that ... you obviously have a VERY narrow understanding of what the phrase can mean. All your posts that follow in this thread show us in spades. Empty vessels making lots of loud primitive noise isn't "balls" ... and art music is a wide wide breadth of music, we're not referring to the 'soft pleasurable easy' stereotypes.

If by "art music," you're incorporating genres beyond classical, then sure, it has tremendous breadth. I'm fully aware that there's breadth within classical music, too, though by and large it tends, to my ears, to be things I described it as. And to be fair, I think anyone who knows the overall course of classical music would have to say that the pieces referred to by Escher are if anything the exceptions that prove the rule.

As for "ballsy" or "having real balls," the former, in the sense of "daring," applies well to Ives and many other classical composers who turned received ideas on their heads. The latter, in the sense of "macho" or "tough and aggressive/assertive," not so much. There we move into the realm of those things that are instigated by, elicit, satisfy, or allow ready sublimation of male aggression, dominance-seeking, and/or sexual desire. I really don't see Mozart or Ives or Bartok whipping guys into a violent frenzy. Classical music has little, if anything, to do with fucking and fighting.

Cato · March 04, 2011, 06:00:37 AM

Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:05:12 PM
sorry it's still just a flimsy & very ill thought connection/recommendation.

escher · March 04, 2011, 06:30:34 AM

Quote from: Grazioso on March 04, 2011, 04:35:35 AM
The latter, in the sense of "macho" or "tough and aggressive/assertive," not so much. There we move into the realm of those things that are instigated by, elicit, satisfy, or allow ready sublimation of male aggression, dominance-seeking, and/or sexual desire. I really don't see Mozart or Ives or Bartok whipping guys into a violent frenzy. Classical music has little, if anything, to do with fucking and fighting.

under this aspect, it does make sense to me. Classical music is not the most physical music, that's true.

Cato · March 04, 2011, 08:02:10 AM

Quote from: James on March 03, 2011, 05:05:12 PM
sorry it's still just a flimsy & very ill thought connection/recommendation.

For those who disagree with the above, and for those who agree:

Quote
John Zorn, the avant garde composer-musician, noted in an interview with Philip Brophy that appeared in the Cartoon Music Book that Stalling was not the first composer to undertake composition in this manner. "Although he used elements and melodies from Scott, it's not unlike the way Charles Ives used American folk themes. Stalling's sense of time, his sense of narrative, completely revolutionized the idea of musical development. This was before the post-modern experiments. He created something completely new."

See:

http://www.answers.com/topic/carl-stalling

karlhenning · March 04, 2011, 08:06:50 AM

Cato, I don't get it. I mean, if James — James, I mean to say — pronounces something flimsy, or someone clueless . . . it cannot be argued with! It must be so! After all, he's the only one here who uses his ears right. I read him claim so himself.

ROFL

Cato · March 04, 2011, 09:10:56 AM

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Sad. Does anyone around here have a thought of their own? Or is it all just cross-referenced tidbit shit they've read elsewhere? Despite what you read elsewhere, I still think recommending loony tunes cartoon music or even putting it into the same vector at all with what Ives was about is way off the mark.

Why, yes I do have a thought of my own, at least now and then! 0:)

I, Cato, immediately thought of Stalling as a descendant of Ives. Only today did I find that John Zorn (there are others as well) happens to agree with me about Stalling being connected ideationally to Ives.

At no time have I ever written that Loony Tunes music is on "the same vector" as Ives.

Please recall the purpose of the topic: I recommended Carl Stalling to someone looking for enjoyment via the catalyst of Ives.

And heavens be praised, I am having another thought of my own right now, and it is about YOU, James! 0:)

DavidRoss · March 04, 2011, 09:22:03 AM

Quote from: Cato on March 04, 2011, 09:10:56 AM
And heavens be praised, I am having another thought of my own right now, and it is about YOU, James! 0:)

That may be an original thought, Cato, but I suspect it's neither unique nor new!

You do teach junior high aged kids, don't you?

Grazioso · March 04, 2011, 09:23:06 AM

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 08:44:40 AM
Sad. Does anyone around here have a thought of their own? Or is it all just cross-referenced tidbit shit they've read elsewhere? Despite what you read elsewhere, I still think recommending loony tunes cartoon music or even putting it into the same vector at all with what Ives was about is way off the mark.

Cato · March 04, 2011, 09:55:31 AM

Quote from: Sherman Peabody on March 04, 2011, 09:22:03 AM
That may be an original thought, Cato, but I suspect it's neither unique nor new!

You do teach junior high aged kids, don't you?

Oh yes! So the context at least is new!

Love that "Next Generation" poster too!

Cato · March 04, 2011, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 10:27:27 AM
Zorn pffff ...

karlhenning · March 04, 2011, 11:08:41 AM

(* Makes a note confirming his already-established tendency never to cross-reference any tidbit shit that James writes *)

Grazioso · March 04, 2011, 11:24:49 AM

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 10:27:27 AM
Zorn pffff ...

Warning: never reference experts, like actual professional composer-musicians, because James will always know more.

***

And just because this thread needs a little more Slayer:

not edward · March 04, 2011, 11:33:41 AM

Oh no, it's the Pink Carp!

Grazioso · March 04, 2011, 12:10:10 PM

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 11:31:40 AM
pff slayer ..

piano forte forte?

Cato · March 04, 2011, 12:20:13 PM

Quote from: James on March 04, 2011, 11:09:00 AM
and have you actually listened to that looney tunes soundtrack stuff first before reading 'stuff' about it .. ?!?! there isn't much there ..

$:-\$

Why yes, I actually have listened to that "stuff," and did so probably well before you were born! In the 40's and 50's it was in fact what introduced me to Classical Music: yes, Carl Stalling was a bridge for me into...Ives!!! And Wagner, and Mendelssohn and other composers he wove into his scores...not unlike Ives quoting hymn tunes!

"Now it is COMPLETE!"

If I like Ives

Mirror Image

Sid

karlhenning

karlhenning