GMG Consensus: Who was the greatest composer of the 20th century?

[karlhenning]

Also, if you claim that (e.g.) Beethoven "stands out" so exemplarily among the Classics (wherein, of course, your blindspot upon Mozart is cast into sharp relief), or — more amusingly still — Wagner among the Romantics, you are simply providing yet another illustration of your cookie-cutter approach to "music appreciation."  You are not, in other words, making any great case for musical sophistication on your own part.

[jochanaan]

Referring to the western art music legacy; as stated in the first line of the opening post.

Which "western art music legacy"?  There are many legacies, each different from every other, all valid and containing great music...

[karlhenning]

Referring to the western art music legacy; as stated in the first line of the opening post.

James, you say you read all our posts, but you give little evidence of having taken thought about them.

Case in point:

. . . 2. Trying to settle on a core characteristic of 20^th-c. music is another exercise in nailing Jell-o to the wall;  the temptation to try to do so is part anachronism, part laziness . . . fact is that from the High Baroque (at least) Western music is too rich, interesting and (to use an adjective which will give some here the fantods) diverse, for it to be of much value to settle on iconic musical characteristics for an entire century.

3. That point above is related to Grazioso's query about narrative:  the rich diversity of Western music exploded exponentially in the 20^th century;  so much (and so many different muchnesses) went on, that a list of genuinely important, influential composers cannot be told on one hand.  Even to insist on keeping it to two hands, seems rather Procrustean.

[karlhenning]

And; a big hello, jo!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Odd. We have 2 so-called musicians here that seem to have no clue as to what major composers of the 'western art/classical music legacy' refers to. Go back to school boys, or visit your local library.

Are you referring to the 'western art/classical music legacy' that includes great composers you apparently despise like Mozart and Beethoven, or some other 'western art/classical music legacy'? Inquiring minds want to know.

[(poco) Sforzando]

If you read the opening post .. YES! that long line ..

Good to know, James! I ask merely in the spirit of (the semi-fictional) Mark Zuckerberg in "The Social Network":

GRETCHEN $18,000.
EDUARDO Yes.
GRETCHEN In addition to the $1000 you'd already put up.
EDUARDO Yes.
GRETCHEN A total of $19,000 now.
EDUARDO Yes.
MARK Hang on.
MARK's scratching something out on a pad...
MARK (CONT'D) I'm just checking your math on that. Yes, I got the same thing.

[karlhenning]

Music history isn't a train track, though.

Nope; not even Western music history. Yer thinking's muddled, James.

[Philoctetes]

off topic but how is that movie btw, worth checking out .. ? I hate facebook and have no interest in it.

The movie is brilliant, on all levels.

[jochanaan]

The movie is brilliant, on all levels.

Including the score, according to the Oscar Academy. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Including the score, according to the Oscar Academy. 

Including some help from Edvard Grieg. Agree with Philo, too, though there are some interesting negative reviews that I'll have to dig out. But then again, I'm 6'5", 220, and there are two of me.

[Sergeant Rock]

The movie is brilliant, on all levels.

I appreciate your opinion but I think I'll wait to see if JdP declares it a work of genius before I invest time watching. That man knows genius 
 
Sarge

[karlhenning]

(* chortle *)

[Grazioso]

I've made a list of composer/s members named "the greatest of the c20th" on this thread, for what it's worth. I'm not sure there is "consensus" but there sure is a healthy diversity of opinion here...

I think you forgot my vote of Elgar. Now, he's not my actual choice, but he illustrates a point I and Karl have made: there's a staggering plethora from which to choose, many of whom fall outside the traditional thumbnail stories of 20th-century music that like to focus on stylistic innovations/novelties/reactions, the first half of the century, Central and Western Europe, etc. What about Victorian holdovers such as Elgar or Bantock? What about Scandinavian arch-Romantics such as Atterberg and Rangstrom, writing well into the century? What about Latin America? What about the rich American tradition outside Copland and Ives? Spain and Italy? Women composers? Composers who never felt that traditional tonality and forms were irrevocably broken or spent? Etc.

[Philoctetes]

I appreciate your opinion but I think I'll wait to see if JdP declares it a work of genius before I invest time watching. That man knows genius 
 
Sarge

Just to clarify, I simply said brilliant... not genius. I'm far from qualified to attest to that loftiness. Although, I'll add further that the Academys were a travesty this year. How The King's Speech won those awards, is a question that is best left unanswered.

[Sid]

Looks like the consensus is Schoenberg, Stravinsky (tie/9) and Shostokovich (6).

Bartok        5
Brian        1
Cage        2
Carter        2
Debussy        3
Feldman        2
Mahler        3
Messiaen        1
Part        1
Piazzolla        1
Prokoviev        3
Rachmoninov 1
Schoenberg   9
Shotakovich  6
Sibelius        3
Stravinsky     9
Varese        1
Xanakis        1


I removed the vote you attributed to me for Cage since I clearly said that I would not put his name forward.  I was only acknowledging that his contribution is considerable in response to the Cage-dismissers.

Well, I think there'd have to be a more "formal" nomination/voting system for it to be properly recognised as consensus. But we may well get similar results. Sorry for my mistake, I did my "tally" on the fly.

I think you forgot my vote of Elgar. Now, he's not my actual choice, but he illustrates a point I and Karl have made: there's a staggering plethora from which to choose, many of whom fall outside the traditional thumbnail stories of 20th-century music that like to focus on stylistic innovations/novelties/reactions, the first half of the century, Central and Western Europe, etc. What about Victorian holdovers such as Elgar or Bantock? What about Scandinavian arch-Romantics such as Atterberg and Rangstrom, writing well into the century? What about Latin America? What about the rich American tradition outside Copland and Ives? Spain and Italy? Women composers? Composers who never felt that traditional tonality and forms were irrevocably broken or spent? Etc.

I agree that the word "greatest" is a term loaded with many ideologies, depending largely on what things one values. I was trying to talk to this issue as well, but it seems that people like James don't want to come to the party on this. Despite the fact that we are now in the post-modern era in terms of scholarship and writing on music and the other arts, some people still retain the old modernist cliches and dogmas. I'm not saying that post-modernism is not without it's limitations, I'm just saying that the old ways of thinking tend to exclude all of those issues you have raised above...

[Mirror Image]

What about Latin America?

Well I've been singing the Latin American praises since I've joined this forum. I've gushed over Villa-Lobos, Revueltas, Chavez, and Ginastera and I will continue to do so because their music is especially fine and drives right into my heart.

[Grazioso]

I agree that the word "greatest" is a term loaded with many ideologies, depending largely on what things one values. I was

When someone gets picked according to those (usually unspoken) ideologies, someone else doesn't. No great harm, perhaps, on a Web forum, but what about when that praised/ignored dynamic works its way into books, articles, recordings, the concert hall?

trying to talk to this issue as well, but it seems that people like James don't want to come to the party on this. Despite the fact that we are now in the post-modern era in terms of scholarship and writing on music and the other arts, some people still retain the old modernist cliches and dogmas. I'm not saying that post-modernism is not without it's limitations, I'm just saying that the old ways of thinking tend to exclude all of those issues you have raised above...

At this point, it does seems rather odd--but for how deeply it's ingrained in Western culture--to be thinking of history in terms of a neat linear narrative of progress, innovation, amelioration, filled with its pantheon of heroes.

History is political, a tool of power, and it should remain an active discourse, a contested ground.

[Brian]

Including some help from Edvard Grieg. Agree with Philo, too, though there are some interesting negative reviews that I'll have to dig out. But then again, I'm 6'5", 220, and there are two of me.

My favorite line from the film, except possibly the reaction line when the Winklevii break a doorknob.

How The King's Speech won those awards, is a question that is best left unanswered.

Easy. The King's Speech is gloriously old-fashioned, a style of film-making which was long ago relegated to BBC2 productions. It was so old that, in our age of irony and self-referentialism, it actually went full circle and became new again. I wouldn't have voted for it, but I think that's what they were responding to.

[Grazioso]

Because you are moving away from consideration of the best composer(s) of the XXth century, into a comprehensive - and indiscriminate - survey of that era, designed it would appear to put second fiddles and even marginal figures, in the place of the great ones.

On the contrary: it's asking who deemed certain composers second fiddles or marginal figures (or conversely, great ones), why they did so, and how they managed to propagate those ideas.

As for best, I couldn't say because I haven't heard and studied them all.

Well I've been singing the Latin American praises since I've joined this forum. I've gushed over Villa-Lobos, Revueltas, Chavez, and Ginastera and I will continue to do so because their music is especially fine and drives right into my heart.

One can't help but wonder why they're a subsidiary or marginalized group in the first place. Is it because some panel of experts sat down and listened objectively to all their work and decided, "Hey, we need a special category for all these lesser composers from that part of the world"? Is it because they're not white Europeans and they or their music doesn't fit neatly into our existing idea of what classical music is and who creates it/listens to it?

Same thing with women composers. Why is there a separate category in the discourse for them? Do their vaginas have some special bearing on their music? "Oh, I like Baroque music, early Romantic, and Female." Is it because they're all poor composers, or is it because they don't fit into what's traditionally been a patriarchal boys club?

[Mirror Image]

One can't help but wonder why they're a subsidiary or marginalized group in the first place. Is it because some panel of experts sat down and listened objectively to all their work and decided, "Hey, we need a special category for all these lesser composers from that part of the world"? Is it because they're not white Europeans and they or their music doesn't fit neatly into our existing idea of what classical music is and who creates it/listens to it?

Same thing with women composers. Why is there a separate category in the discourse for them? Do their vaginas have some special bearing on their music? "Oh, I like Baroque music, early Romantic, and Female." Is it because they're all poor composers, or is it because they don't fit into what's traditionally been a patriarchal boys club?

All valid points, Grazioso. The same could be said for Canadian, African, Australian, Chinese, Japanese, etc. The United States has only in the past 50 years started to get recognition as a country of great composers. I mean we have Ives, Barber, Copland, etc., but we'll see how long it takes for Latin America to get the recognition it deserves. I think if people start really exploring Latin America, they will find that the truly great composers to come out of it were those like Revueltas and Villa-Lobos, for example, who borrowed from the European tradition while injecting the music of their native land into the music much the same way Europe has done.

My love for these Latin composers came from finally breaking down and listening to some Ginastera one day. I think I listened to his dances from his ballet Estancia. I was completely blown away by the music. It was as if Stravinsky had spent a year hanging out with gauchos on a ranch in Argentina while absorbing all of their folk music there. The thing that attracts me to these composers is rhythm and, like Stravinsky's and Bartok's music, the constant need to drive the rhythm forward while continuously changing the harmony and melody but always observing the structure of a work.

I hope to see more of these composers featured in concert halls outside of the Latin American countries. Some progress has been made but not enough to make a substantial impact internationally. Hopefully, conductors like John Neschling, Enrique Batiz (don't know what has happened to him lately), Giselle Ben-Dor, Gustavo Dudamel, among others will continue to promote this music.