Are you intrigued by music that disturbs and/or challenges?

[(poco) Sforzando]

And if you knew me, you would know that I don't like opera, so obviously I wouldn't bother listening to Mozart's.

I would not have expected that, considering that from the long list of names of composers you like - Janacek, Ravel, Berg, Debussy, Ligeti, and more - many have been notable composers of opera (even though not primarily composers of opera in the sense of Wagner or Verdi).

[Mirror Image]

I would not have expected that, considering that from the long list of names of composers you like - Janacek, Ravel, Berg, Debussy, Ligeti, and more - many have been notable composers of opera (even though not primarily composers of opera in the sense of Wagner or Verdi).

Well there are only a few operas I enjoy: both of Berg's, Ravel's L'Enfant et les sortileges, and Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle. I'm still "discovering" Janacek's operas, so this is a work still in progress. This said, all of these composers have composed amazingly well in other genres, especially orchestral which is what I mainly listen to.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well there are only a few operas I enjoy: both of Berg's, Ravel's L'Enfant et les sortileges, and Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle. I'm still "discovering" Janacek's operas, so this is a work still in progress. This said, all of these composers have composed amazingly well in other genres, especially orchestral which is what I mainly listen to.

That is undoubtedly true. I can see, for example, admiring Debussy without taking an interest in Pelleas, or Ligeti while ignoring Le Grand Macabre. It becomes harder to claim an interest in Berg or Janacek without wanting to know their operas, as in both cases opera is central to these composers' careers.

[Musician]

Some of Dawn Upshaws music is 'different' and somewhat challenging.

I saw her in London perform Kafka Fragments which she has done before, but I found it somewhat disturbing. 

[karlhenning]

That is undoubtedly true. I can see, for example, admiring Debussy without taking an interest in Pelleas . . . .

We can all see that, especially, meseems ; )

[jochanaan]

Some of Dawn Upshaws music is 'different' and somewhat challenging...

She composes?

[(poco) Sforzando]

She composes?

There was nothing in the original question that excluded performers.

[jochanaan]

There was nothing in the original question that excluded performers.

True.

[starrynight]

All classical music challenges our attention, expectations and emotions more than popular music does.

All?  Than all of popular music?  That seems a big generalisation.

[jochanaan]

All?  Than all of popular music?  That seems a big generalisation.

Indeed, considering that "popular music" also includes such names as Charlie Parker, Miles, Dylan, and even Lennon/McCartney.

[starrynight]

I think, with music, a person has to accept that not everything is for them no matter how much effort they put into it. There are some things we simply will never wrap our heads around no matter how hard we try and I'm certainly okay with that.

Each person will look at things in their own way.  Everybody has some stylistic preferences and music they will listen to more than others, but other music outside of that will take more time to explore and understand.  How much time someone devotes to doing that is an individual choice.  It can seem like a large amount of effort for not such a large success rate sometimes, but as long as I like a few things in another style I see it as a success.

Those who listen to classical music have normally already made a decision to go outside of the modern mainstream by listening to some classical, but inevitably they will still vary in how much effort they want to put in listening to other music. 

[DavidW]

All?  Than all of popular music?  That seems a big generalisation.

Well there could possibly be exceptions, but when most pop music is a song with a catchy but simple melody (more of a motif) in 4/4 time...

[jochanaan]

Well there could possibly be exceptions, but when most pop music is a song with a catchy but simple melody (more of a motif) in 4/4 time...

Sounds like Die Erlkönig!

[karlhenning]

There's a witty song on the Daryl Hall album Sacred Songs (produced by Robt Fripp) that goes, "You've gotta have something in 4/4 time, / You've gotta have something that rhymes" . . . .

[Grazioso]

Sounds like Die Erlkönig!

Glad I'm not the only one I always think of Lieder like "Die Forelle" or "Heidenröslein" (or things like Grieg's Lyric Pieces) when someone starts talking about classical music being larger, more complex, more sophisticated, etc. than popular music.

[starrynight]

   I didn't say that I'm appalled by the fact that so many people like Beethoven,Mozart nd Tchaikovsky.
   What I said is that I'm appaled that so many want to hear the same old familiar and beloved pieces over and over again, and the prospect of hearing something new and different frightens them.
   Their minds are closed. They're not willing to give unfamiliar music a chance. 
There's absolutely nothing wrong with loving Beethoven,Mozart and Tchaikovsky etc, but there's so much worthwhile
music outside the box.  To many concertgoers can't think outside it.

There is a place for some music as a kind of comforting familiar friend which you return to now and again.  Recordings themselves foster this with us knowing exactly how the piece will be played having heard it before.  Of course to just restrict listening to that would be very limited, but that's an individual's choice I suppose.

But broadening out this idea I think there is a very conservative strain to some of the classical music audience, particularly older people perhaps.  This can be reflected in a very backward looking approach not just to music in general but to other things from a snobby cliquey attitude and a desire that the 'great unwashed' (as they would think of them) should not be allowed to access culture too easily through things like the internet.  A bemoaing of the passing of the cd, or a record company, or record shops, just a general unwillingness to move forward with how things change and to accept that change.  I don't see that here so much as on some other forums but it is something that I find a bit annoying.  Things survive by changing and adapting, if they don't they are in danger of ending up in a museum sooner rather than later.  By extension this could be a danger for classical music itself.

[Lethevich]

I agree with David, and could maybe venture to phrase it as something along the lines of:

Classical music rewards further listening not simply due to its relative complexity alone, but in the the duality of the surface content and the deeper structural, emotional, intellectual or interpretive content: the more you listen, the more that aspects such as long-line, shaping and so on become apparent.

Pop music in this respect is different, and even when it is technically complex, that complexity tends to be surface-oriented with little else to offer.

[Sid]

I agree with David, and could maybe venture to phrase it as something along the lines of:

Classical music rewards further listening not simply due to its relative complexity alone, but in the the duality of the surface content and the deeper structural, emotional, intellectual or interpretive content: the more you listen, the more that aspects such as long-line, shaping and so on become apparent.

Pop music in this respect is different, and even when it is technically complex, that complexity tends to be surface-oriented with little else to offer.

I don't know if I can fully agree with that (viz your last paragraph). Some composers of "pop" music have been trained in the classical ways. Eg. Burt Bacharach studied under Milhaud and others, if I'm correct. Many of his hits have just as complex time signatures as found in many types of classical music. Indeed, I'd say that Bacharach could probably put some of the "sell by the yard" contemporary classical composers (as the late Harry Partch used to call them) to great shame. But it's true that not all pop composers have Bacharach's talent or facility, neither do they all have major performers of the talent of someone like Dionne Warwick to sing their songs.

I basically think that some of the traditional distinctions between classical and non-classical music have been reduced for a long time, but especially since the last hundred years. Eg. I just saw Schoenberg's song-cycle (or melodrama for voice and ensemble as he called it)  Pierrot Lunaire a few weeks ago, and the truth be told, it had more to do with the contemporary cabaret world than things like Schubert or Schumann lieder of a couple of generations before. & virtually all of today's electronica and the more sophisticated forms of techno sprang out of the work of electroacoustic pioneers of the classical world, eg. Varese, Stockhausen, Xenakis, etc. Charlie Parker was a huge admirer of Varese, as was Frank Zappa, and the Beatles paid homage to Stockhausen (whose lectures they had attended) by putting his face on the cover of Sargeant Peppers. Techno has even entered the concert halls, Thomas Ades orchestral work Asyla (a symphony in all but name) has a pivotal section which is basically the Rite of Spring meets techno...

Each person will look at things in their own way.  Everybody has some stylistic preferences and music they will listen to more than others, but other music outside of that will take more time to explore and understand.  How much time someone devotes to doing that is an individual choice.  It can seem like a large amount of effort for not such a large success rate sometimes, but as long as I like a few things in another style I see it as a success.

I agree with this, particularly your last sentence. 20 years ago I was mainly a listener of orchestral music, now I enjoy every other genre except opera (but even that I plan to get into slowly during the next couple of years; & I am familiar with the famous opera arias because my mother liked to listen to them when I was young). I'm now getting into composers like Beethoven, Boccherini, Mozart & Monteverdi (to name a few) and have found that they were just as innovative as any major composer of the Twentieth Century, which used to be my main domain. Flexibility pays off in the end, but the listener has to come to the music and adapt him/herself to it, not the other way round. Once you are open to engaging with the music, this whole process of discovery becomes a joy, as I have found in the past couple of years...

[Mirror Image]

Since we're talking about being more open to things, I've been getting a bit back into film scores lately and I want to dive more into the genre as I have always enjoyed it. Ennio Morricone has been a favorite of mine for quite some time, so I've purchased four of his more popular scores a few days ago. Jerry Goldsmith and Bernard Herrmann are two film giants I want to tackle pretty soon. There's a big box of Danny Elfman's scores for Tim Burton films coming out pretty soon. That looks interesting.

[eyeresist]

Jerry Goldsmith and Bernard Herrmann are two film giants I want to tackle pretty soon.

Yes!