Are you intrigued by music that disturbs and/or challenges?

[DavidW]

I don't know if I can fully agree with that (viz your last paragraph). Some composers of "pop" music have been trained in the classical ways. Eg. Burt Bacharach studied under Milhaud and others, if I'm correct. Many of his hits have just as complex time signatures as found in many types of classical music. Indeed, I'd say that Bacharach could probably put some of the "sell by the yard" contemporary classical composers (as the late Harry Partch used to call them) to great shame. But it's true that not all pop composers have Bacharach's talent or facility, neither do they all have major performers of the talent of someone like Dionne Warwick to sing their songs.

Really?  Burt Bacharach??  What's New Pussycat is musically superior to composers such as Schnittke in your opinion?

[karlhenning]

The metrical changes in "Promises, Promises" are lovely in their way, but it's no Le sacre, is it?

[Luke]

My issue with Sid's paragraph about Bacharach, the Ferneyhough of the pop world  is twofold - firstly the example itself which I find very unconvincing in a number of ways; secondly, if there is some 'complexity' in Bacharach's time signatures* it's precisely the kind of surface-complexity about which Lethe was talking when she said:

Pop music in this respect is different, and even when it is technically complex, that complexity tends to be surface-oriented with little else to offer'

- this was the point Sid was trying to counter, but it seems to me his example only reinforces it. I do believe that there is pop music with considerable complexity and sophistication and which uses formal techniques similar to those in classical music to reach rather deep down in a way that is also comparable to classical music. But not much, and it doesn't include Bacharach.

*  it seems odd to me to even write that sentence because unless we are talking about wildly Bartokian additive rhythms or new Complexity irrational time signatures or, at least, time signatures that change in a Rite of Spring-like way, time signatures in themelves are not in themselves really indicative of complexity

[DavidW]

*  it seems odd to me to even write that sentence because unless we are talking about wildly Bartokian additive rhythms or new Complexity irrational time signatures or, at least, time signatures that change in a Rite of Spring-like way, time signatures in themelves are not in themselves really indicative of complexity

That's my fault, this discussion of time signatures came from me describing pop music as songs with a catchy tune and 4/4 time.  I meant it as a cheeky throw away line, but other posters took my response as a serious indictment of pop music.

All I meant is that I find classical music to have a rich, heady depth that I don't find in pop music.

[starrynight]

Greater technical complexity doesn't necessarily mean better music, indeed it might even get in the way of the music in some cases.  What did Beethoven like about Handel?  The greatest effects with the simplest means?

[Grazioso]

Greater technical complexity doesn't necessarily mean better music, indeed it might even get in the way of the music in some cases.  What did Beethoven like about Handel?  The greatest effects with the simplest means?

ftw. I see no reason to laud complexity (or simplicity) unless it helps deliver a moving artistic experience.

And what is this distinction between some sort of apparent surface complexity and hidden depth? How much one hears in--or attributes to--a piece of music depends at least as much on the listener's ear, knowledge of music history and theory, and personal interests and preoccupations as it does on the music itself.

[Scarpia]

Most pop music is (by definition) designed to appeal to the largest audience and not very complicated.  It still may require tremendous technical sophistication to pull off but the message is simple.  But "pop" music which is more "artsy" and less commercially driven can be quite sophisticated.  It still lacks large scale organization.  I can think of pop songs which to me seem every bit as subtle as a Schubert lieder, but none that can be compared with a Brahms symphony.

[Grazioso]

It still lacks large scale organization.  I can think of pop songs which to me seem every bit as subtle as a Schubert lieder, but none that can be compared with a Brahms symphony.

And that's no discredit to pop songs. It's like pointing out that a haiku can't compete in scale with Paradise Lost.

[starrynight]

Most pop music is (by definition) designed to appeal to the largest audience

Chart music is a very small proportion of popular music.  Most popular music is aimed more at different niche audiences now anyway.   Not that the size of an audience reflects on whether something is good or not anyway, that's often more about how much it was marketed than the music.  Classical music too gets hype around performers.

[Grazioso]

Small,medium or large scale ..best 'art music' is just so much richer, and more valuable.

[DavidW]

Most popular music is aimed more at different niche audiences now anyway.   

I think you don't understand what the word "popular" means!   Since you've directly contradicted the meaning of the word.

[Sergeant Rock]

I think you don't understand what the word "popular" means!  

Or maybe you don't understand what the word popular means in this forum. It's the opposite of classical. Popular music genres include jazz, country, R&B, rap, Americana, folk, bluegrass, rock, metal....and pop. Only pop is really popular with the masses 

Sarge

[DavidW]

Well Sarge, frankly that's stupid.  Do you really think that our fellow forumites are so shallow that they see music purely in terms of a classical/non-classical dichotomy?

[Grazioso]

Well Sarge, frankly that's stupid.  Do you really think that our fellow forumites are so shallow that they see music purely in terms of a classical/non-classical dichotomy?

James does 

[starrynight]

Only pop is really popular with the masses 

Many people don't like mainstream pop nowadays though.  I think even the pop audience is split now, with some preferring older pop, foreign pop, indie pop etc.

[Coco]

Well Sarge, frankly that's stupid.  Do you really think that our fellow forumites are so shallow that they see music purely in terms of a classical/non-classical dichotomy?

I am one of these horrible shallow people. But really, it all comes down to how you engage with whatever particular type of music. I expect non-classical music to delight and classical music to stimulate. Music that self-consciously "blurs" the lines between the two either comes off as pop musicians aiming for classical depth, but lacking the taste or proficiency to do so — or it comes off as a contrived attempt by serious composers to reach a larger audience in a gross market research kind of way.

[Grazioso]

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[westknife]

Nothing in pop music (or jazz) can touch the profundity of a Bach chorale for instance.

Obviously you're not a fan, but I would say that John Coltrane's A Love Supreme, for example, has a deeply meditative 'profundity' as you call it. You can't compare it to a Bach chorale, though; it's apples to oranges. But it's just as powerful in its own way.

[jochanaan]

Nothing in pop music (or jazz) can touch the profundity of a Bach chorale for instance.

Yeah, those ol' drinking songs with words by Martin Luther can be really deep!

[snyprrr]

I find Tool disturbing.