Mystery Orchestra 16

[M forever]

Thanks for the replies so far. But 22 downloads already and not more posts? Hello lurkers?

Here are your bonus clips. Only, to avoid confusion with the numbers, I don't call them "bonus" anymore. They are just B,C,D,E. "Only" 5 in total this time. But I think that's enough! Overkill can easily set in.

MO16 B
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yu6yme

MO16 C
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2a2sn9

MO16 D
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2frhdw

MO 16 E
http://preview.tinyurl.com/22zs7h

[PSmith08]

Indeed, you have no information at all about what people had for dinner unless they told you or you were there. But here, you actually have the object of study itself "in front of you". So *something* must be the basis for your guess. Why not a British orchestra? A French? An American? Or maybe a Russian? Or Czech? Or maybe not. I am not suggesting you should consider these options. I am just asking what gave you that impression. If you think German, why "regional"? And what does "regional" mean?

The ARD members serve a specific region, so their orchestras - if they have them - would be "regional," as they are part of a regional organization. Why German? Well, it certainly isn't because there is a specific "German" sound - as the orchestral diversity in Germany shows; rather, it's just a guess based on my first impression. As that brings me to my rationale, there is no terribly specific algorithm that I used, other than feel and sense.

It could be British, French, American, Russian, Czech, or - for all I know - Japanese. I would be wrong in my "guess" in that case. Ultimately, who played it is of appreciably less consequence than how they played it. I'll iterate my point: it has, to my ears, an elegant and well-controlled sound. Beyond that, I'm just watching the hand play itself along.

[M forever]

Ultimately, who played it is of appreciably less consequence than how they played it.

I completely agree. That is the main idea of these Mystery threads. The question *who* is obviously very interesting, but while we are listening, it should be more or less irrelevant since we should just listen to the musical substance, not think about who we think we are listening to and what we think we are "supposed" to hear.

But you know how extremely fixated a lot of people are on a lot of rankings and gradings, the best this, the greatest that, and how *specific* they are in their "opinions" - but only as long as they *know* who they are listening to. These Mystery threads have proven that beyond doubt. They have also proven that all these "greatest orchestras" lists are completely nonsensical. How can they be "the greatest" when the same people who "decide" that can't even tell them all apart (I don't mean you, I mean in general)? And not even "dare" to voice and opinion blindly?
Remember, both you and me just replied to yet another of these "the best" posts over in the other forum.

The ARD members serve a specific region, so their orchestras - if they have them - would be "regional," as they are part of a regional organization.

I see. But, from that point of view, aren't *all* orchestras "regional"? Sure, they travel, they make recordings, but most of the time they stay in and "serve" their home region, actually only their home city. The ARD orchestras travel and make recordings, too, which are internationally known (obviously, otherwise you wouldn't know about them since you are not "in the region"). That they, due to their nature as radio orchestras, get broadcast more and more regularly than other orchestras actually makes them less regional. Especially since in Germany, they can not only be heard on their regional stations - all of them get broadcast on the superregional ARD services as well. But that only as an aside. I see what you mean in this context.

Why German? Well, it certainly isn't because there is a specific "German" sound - as the orchestral diversity in Germany shows;

Very true. Like I have said myself several times, there is no easily defineable German orchestral sound. It is a spectrum rather than a single set of sonic values. One could then say because of the diversity, it should actually be *easier* to place an orchestra somewhere within that spectrum, easier than if they had all the exact same sound. But that may go too far in this context, so we note your guess as what it is and for your reasons.

That PSmith08 and me discuss these points here in detail does not mean I am saying he is right or very close. Maybe he is. Or maybe not. Please keep that in mind. I am replying to and discussing *his observations* here. I am not discussing the clip. Discussing the clip is entirely the players' priviledge.

[Valentino]

MO 16 B:
Not a lot of dynamics in the recording, and it also is in want of transparency. The performance is closer to what I prefer than the previous one, more emphasis on drama, but not quite there. Trowing all fiddles to the left is still bad practice in this music.
As for the suspended in time oboe, here's another take! Works for me, a bit sad and lonely.

MO 16 C:
Tempo! is the first impression. Prominent trumpets, allowed to play loud. Small drums. The oboe candenza is a marvellous contrast to the general proceedings. I haven't heard the celebrated Gardiner or Harnoncourt cycles, but I guess it's from one of those.

[M forever]

As for the suspended in time oboe, here's another take! Works for me, a bit sad and lonely.

That's very poetic, Valentino! Would you like to dare venture a guess as to the orchestra's identity or provenance? Or maybe even which conductor this interpretation might fit with?

Let us know your thoughts about the other clips as well.

[Valentino]

Oh, but thanks M! Too many orchestras in the world, but I think we're in Europe. What about the Philharmonia and Klemperer (if they ever did this together)?

For MO 16 C, see above. Must go shopping for food and our new home. Maybe I can get to D and E late this evening.

[M forever]

You could also just stay in, order a pizza, and continue listening to the clips while you wait for it.

MO 16 B:
Not a lot of dynamics in the recording, and it also is in want of transparency. The performance is closer to what I prefer than the previous one, more emphasis on drama, but not quite there. Trowing all fiddles to the left is still bad practice in this music.
As for the suspended in time oboe, here's another take! Works for me, a bit sad and lonely.

You are saying less dynamic, yet more dramatic. Isn't that a contradiction?

MO 16 C:
Tempo! is the first impression. Prominent trumpets, allowed to play loud. Small drums. The oboe candenza is a marvellous contrast to the general proceedings. I haven't heard the celebrated Gardiner or Harnoncourt cycles, but I guess it's from one of those.

What makes you think so? The texture of the sound, or the fast tempo, or both? If you want to guess either Harnoncourt or Gardiner, you have to know that the former uses mostly modern istruments but with some "period" techniques applied, the latter period instruments. Since you haven't heard either, you may not have a clear idea how the Harnoncourt cycle actually sounds. But do the instruments here sound like modern or period instruments to you, regardess of how they are used? That is a relevant question because the style alone is not necessarily telling you what kind of instruments are used. Some "modern" orchestra interpretations play this with a decidedly "HIP" flavor, some "period" instrument performances just play on old instruments, but in a style which is really not much different from that of modern orchestras.

Which doesn't mean it is either Gardiner or Harnoncourt. Maybe it is one of them. Or maybe not.

[hautbois]

It's definitely not the Concertgebouw orch, as the clarinet is way too strident and the oboe is way too dark and inarticulate, and i am doubtful whether there has been any commercial recording issued of a mediocre orchestra performing in the Concertgebouw. It's probably not one of the big German orchestras too, because there is no unity in style among the sections. An American orchestra is out of the question because American orchestras are extremely tight when it comes to hiring American style oboists. A Vienese orchestra would never hire an oboist like that! (So much that one tell from the soloists alone)

I suspect that the resonance of the hall is fake, an engineering surplus, because when the accoustics help, the orchestra becomes alive, not in this case.

It's also not possible that it was made with neither Gardiner or Harnoncourt, because all the trademarks of their performances are non existent - no absolute orchestral precision here, no transparency, with sharp flutes and uncanny orchestral entrances, and considering that Harnoncourt always wants unusual surprises, there is almost non here and this performance is very much in accordance to the so called 'traditional' way of performing the 5th in terms of tempi choices and dynamic relationships. Although, after a 2nd listening, i noticed a lot of small bits never much exposed very well brought out here. Still, the performance does not come alive, and is a bit dull, and with the addition of a dark and heavy quality, says something about its possible region and even record label. A Naxos recording?  The recording sounds too digital to be Klemperer and the Philharmonia. My final guess would be that it is a Russian orchestra with a rather strong conductor, possibly on Naxos (because it is so dry and they try to make it not)! I can't be more specific than that i suppose.

[M forever]

Gardiner and Harnoncourt were actually mentioned in connection with another clip, not the first one which someone said sounded like it may have been recorded in the Concertgebouw. We have 5 clips on the loose now, A-E, please rephrase your post, or better, just reply again to reflect which one(s) you are talking about, so there are no misunderstandings. Best is if you head your comments with "MO16 A" or similar, like Valentino did.

If you are talking about A, the original clip, you are the first one who reviews it negatively. That brings stimulating new elements into the discussion, but you are not very clear about what you don't like, or rather, why you raise these points. What is the problem with the oboe? Why do you think the orchestra is "mediocre" and such an orchestra would never be recorded in the Concertgebouw? You think of Klemperer with the Philharmonia but you said the sound is too modern to be that  - so you think the Philharmonia of Klemperer's era was a "mediocre orchestra with inarticulate oboes"? One which would never be "allowed" to be recorded in the Concertgebouw? And why is the resonance fake? And, what puzzled me the most, what has "dark and heavy" have to do with Naxos? Please clarify.

Again, all the above are just questions for more clarification, not disagreement or agreement from me.

[Valentino]

MO 16 C again.

Old drums with hard sticks, and natural horns and trumpets, i.e. HIP, but still not right in a way I cannot explain (In very deep waters here). Something with the strings. Apart for the high tempo pretty straightforward and not very inspired. So I drop Gardiner and Harnoncourt and say Brüggen with his Orch of the 18th Century.

[Valentino]

You could also just stay in, order a pizza, and continue listening to the clips while you wait for it.

You are saying less dynamic, yet more dramatic. Isn't that a contradiction?

Shopping done. I'm doing this while I should be playing with my boys. Not quite LvB vs nephew Carl style. They're here, and not at a boarding school or in the army.

MO 16 B: Less dynamic technically (Than A), but a more dramatic interpretation. No contradiction there.

[M forever]

By "technically", do you mean technical quality of the playing, or the dynamic range of the recorded sound (or both)?

By "dramatic" do you mean that in the sense of "more contrasted" in the sense the word drama originally had (as in, the individual sections are contrasted more as far as tempi or other parameters are concerned, there is a "drama" unfolding in the way contrasting elements or arguments are set in relationship with each other) or more in the sense the word is now often used, meaning, "exciting, a lot of action, fast and furious"?

[Valentino]

I mean the dynamic range of the recorded sound and drama in the old fashioned way, M.

[M forever]

Thanks for the clarification. Apart from the interpretation and overall effect, which orchestra do you like better, as far as playing and orchestral sound are concerned - *if* you prefer one to the other one -?

[hautbois]

Gardiner and Harnoncourt were actually mentioned in connection with another clip, not the first one which someone said sounded like it may have been recorded in the Concertgebouw. We have 5 clips on the loose now, A-E, please rephrase your post, or better, just reply again to reflect which one(s) you are talking about, so there are no misunderstandings. Best is if you head your comments with "MO16 A" or similar, like Valentino did.

If you are talking about A, the original clip, you are the first one who reviews it negatively. That brings stimulating new elements into the discussion, but you are not very clear about what you don't like, or rather, why you raise these points. What is the problem with the oboe? Why do you think the orchestra is "mediocre" and such an orchestra would never be recorded in the Concertgebouw? You think of Klemperer with the Philharmonia but you said the sound is too modern to be that  - so you think the Philharmonia of Klemperer's era was a "mediocre orchestra with inarticulate oboes"? One which would never be "allowed" to be recorded in the Concertgebouw? And why is the resonance fake? And, what puzzled me the most, what has "dark and heavy" have to do with Naxos? Please clarify.

Again, all the above are just questions for more clarification, not disagreement or agreement from me.

I refer to only clip A as my download speed is limited and it is taking me too hell long to download the other 3, but anyhow...

All my references are towards what the others have said. Someone posted that it may be Klemperer with the Philharmonia but obviously this record sounds too digital to be that. I love the Philharmonia oboes from that era, do not misunderstand me. Sorry if my poor english is not conveying my message but instead creating more misunderstandings, i certainly didn't mean to and i am sorry. (It's not my first language by the way.)

To answer your questions, or rather to re-interpret my poorly written post:

There is no problem with the oboe! I was simply trying to point out that it is unlikely the Concertgebouw because i know how Dutch oboe sounds like (very articulated and light in sound) and the Concertgebouw has not have a non-Dutch oboist before Jansons and Jansons did not record a Beethoven 5th in my knowledge, if he did, the clarinet was definitely not Dutch either. Inarticulate does not necessarily mean bad, just not Dutch. (In wind player language, which i am sure you have plenty of knowledge, articulation is defined the same as in normal English language usage, with the exception that we often say that a person does not articulate well enough because he does not clearly attack a note, or does not present his ideas well enough, etc.)

Why i relate dark and heavy with Naxos is simply because, many Naxos recordings, especially those recorded before 1990 with the Slovakian orchestras are dry in tone quality, yet there is an abundance of echo behind it, giving me an impression that they have done a great deal of post-recording editing. This is in fact still present in their recently issued recordings, one i remember well being the Peabody Conservatory Winds Anniversary cd, which was made obviously in a hefty dry accoustic. To make it clearer, these orchestras that made recordings with Naxos during that period, including the Russian ochestras had a very distinct dark quality to it, and heavy in the way they articulated (the clarinet), and why i sound so negative is because i have never been used to that way of playing. The thing i find difficult to distinguish is that the clarinetist and the oboist plays so differently in terms of style, it is hard to guess which region this orchestra is from, and that is rare among the German scene, thus my hypothesis that it is not a German orchestra.

The orchestra is mediocre because many entrances are not together, coupled with that awful sharp woodwind secion (most noticeably flutes) above the strings during tutti passages.

p.s. the Klemperer days Philharmonia has one of the most articulate oboe sections of all time. They really dare play out and they often sounded fascinating.

[M forever]

Thanks for the clarifications. I can now understand many of your points better. I don't have so many pre-1990 Naxos recordings with Slovakian orchestras, so I don't have a clear idea of what you mean (which is not your "fault" obviously). I think I have one, so I have to dig that up and listen to it.

The orchestra is mediocre because many entrances are not together, coupled with that awful sharp woodwind secion (most noticeably flutes) above the strings during tutti passages.

Can you give examples for sharp woodwinds and not-together entrances?


It's a pity you can't download the other clips. I believe you would find them very interesting and contrasting.

[hautbois]

Unfortunately, owing to my very own stupidity, i deleted my copy of clip A.  And it takes years to get it back.

To put it as clear as possible, the tutti forte passages show just how sharp the flute section is, and the so called bad entrances include the beginning of the clip, where the recap does not sound convincing at all. (How ignorant of me to say that the orchestra is mediocre because of that, we all know who to blame when we hear something like that on a recording  )

Will download the next 3 clips today.

[M forever]

If you deleted the clip by accident, it may till be in your recycle bin. What do you mean by "ages"? Are you on dialup?

I guess by "recap" at the beginning you mean the repeat of the exposition? There is nothing not together there (I am not giving away anything here, I think, since that is a technical aspect, not a matter of opinion). It would be nice if you can retrieve the clip and point us to which passages you mean (best by giving the timing in the clip, mins-secs). There must be many such passages for you to arrive at such a broad conclusion about the general quality of th orchestra. Please also point out which of the forte passages have sharp flutes. Then other listeners can reply to that. No one pointed out such things yet.
What do you mean by "who to blame"?

I hope you enjoy the next clips. I believe you will find the comparison interesting and stimulating. Or maybe not. We will see what your impressions are.


Hello, lurkers!

Already 43 downloads of clip A and only a handful opinions?

[rubio]

I just listened to these 5 clips, and here are my impressions:

A: This is the most warm, lush sounding 5th I've heard so far. There are beautiful sounds from the trumpets and winds, and I imagine that Colin Davis' Beethoven sounds like this. I guess it's him and Staatskapelle Dresden.

B: A bit speedier approach, and it reminds me of Mackerras cycle with RLPO. In a way it sounds English to me, but I don't know how to explain why.

C: Even brisker. Could this be the HIP cycle from Bruggen? It is exciting to hear the music this way, even if I prefer the classical approach for this symphony.

D: Back to a more classical approach and it sounds more dramatic than clip A. I guess it's one of the old masters - Boehm/BPO.

E: Also a classical approach. My initial impression is that the movement doesn't flow like clip A and D (or maybe it is more dynamic), and I have problems coming up with a suggestion for who this could be.

I liked clip A and D the most. I have never played any instrument, so I don't have a lot of insight when it comes to characterizing different aspects of instrumental sound. Maybe I can learn a few things.

[Valentino]

D is good. The beautiful sounds of A and the drama of B combined, with the loneliest oboe thus far. Modern big orchestra, all fiddles left.

E is the one I'd buy. I like the way the orchestra set up. The tempo is just right. The oboe is sort of fragmented, but hey! its just one bar. Here's the drama I want. Finally a c minor that is played like c minor! Who? No idea, but I hope there's a fasit to this little game?