Mystery Orchestra 16

[Nipper]

Hi, everyone. I'd like to give this a try, though I have to admit right off the bat that I don't have a very wide knowledge of different orchestras or even probably of the stereotypes of American vs. European, etc.  I've only heard about four or five different recordings of Beethoven's 5th. And I'm certainly not a musician. Mostly  I am fascinated by the way not knowing exactly what I'm listening to forces me to concentrate. Hopefully I'll learn something new.  I know I did by lurking on the Mystery Orchestra 15 thread.
  So, I have listened to clip A twice, and I'm posting this without looking at what anyone else has written.
  First of all, this is BIG band Beethoven on modern instruments. Really BIG—the sound just seems massively huge and it is sensationally well recorded, with very wide range.  There is especially a lot of bass information—almost too much for my (quite decent) headphones in places.  I can hear the hall.  This is a very pleasing effect. I am close, but there is a also some sense of space too. Is this one of Telarc's better efforts?
  That massiveness of foundation in the bass, especially in the strings, is really impressive.  I'm not sure I've heard anything quite like it before.  I don't know the new(ish) Barenboim recording with the Berlin Staatskapelle, but this is what I imagine it might sound like from descriptions I've read.  I can hear a page being turned.  The tempo feels nice to me. I don't think it is being manipulated very much.  It seems pretty steady. It is not rushed, but there is still enough tension and propulsion.  Compared to Carlos Kleiber's famous recording, the brass don't bray as much (so maybe we are to the west of Vienna?), and I think it's slower than Kleiber's. This sounds to me more like something Bruno Walter might do if he were still alive. Whoever this is, I have the impression that the playing is on a very high level technically (and I don't think I'm just being influenced by the high quality of the recording).  Attacks and entrances seem very very clean.  I could perhaps ask for a bit more dramatic contrast between the louds and the softs.  At 3:15 there is quite a magical effect where the winds are coming in behind the strings—what a gorgeous rich sound.  At 3:30 the exposed wind solo (an oboe?) is gorgeous too, although there is a bit of a loss of momentum here.  I don't think this is the Czech Philharmonic, based on those winds. They don't seem quite as idiosyncratic and as full of character as I think of the Czechs' as being.  They are beautiful, but playing fairly straight.  Geez—everything just sounds so BIG and so massively supported, especially in the strings—I keep coming back to that. But I don't really know what orchestra that would point to. A top tier German orchestra?  I don't really have enough knowledge to say.

[M forever]

Well, like I said, you don't have to "guess the band". And you already made a lot of detailed observations and interpreted these as pointing to a general geographic direction, you ruled out a few areas based on the characteristics you perceived, naming a specific orchestra isn't really necessary, your observations and tentative conclusion are quite specific in themselves.

Anyway, welcome to "Mystery Orchestra" and thanks for your detailed review.

Hopefully I’ll learn something new.  I know I did by lurking on the Mystery Orchestra 15 thread.

Aha!!! An ex-lurker  Well, there are *a lot* of lurkers here. Maybe some of these will come forward and "dare" to post their opinions.

Really BIG—the sound just seems massively huge and it is sensationally well recorded, with very wide range.  There is especially a lot of bass information—almost too much for my (quite decent) headphones in places.  I can hear the hall.  This is a very pleasing effect. I am close, but there is a also some sense of space too. Is this one of Telarc’s better efforts?

Maybe. Or maybe not. Obviously, at this point I can't say yet . Several other players commented positively about the sound quality, too. One poster said it sounds like a really dry recording with a lot of fake reverb though. Looks like you wouldn't agree.

I can hear a page being turned.

Do you find that good or bad? Some people hate hearing stuff like that on recordings, some find it adds a degree of authenticity because it gives you a feeling of "being there" because when you go to a live concert and sit close to the orchestra, you can sometimes hear such sounds, too.


We look forward to your comments about the other clips. Well, I do, and I am sure the other players, do, too.

[M forever]

I just listened to these 5 clips, and here are my impressions:

A: This is the most warm, lush sounding 5th I've heard so far. There are beautiful sounds from the trumpets and winds, and I imagine that Colin Davis' Beethoven sounds like this. I guess it's him and Staatskapelle Dresden.

B: A bit speedier approach, and it reminds me of Mackerras cycle with RLPO. In a way it sounds English to me, but I don't know how to explain why.

C: Even brisker. Could this be the HIP cycle from Bruggen? It is exciting to hear the music this way, even if I prefer the classical approach for this symphony.

D: Back to a more classical approach and it sounds more dramatic than clip A. I guess it's one of the old masters - Boehm/BPO.

E: Also a classical approach. My initial impression is that the movement doesn't flow like clip A and D (or maybe it is more dynamic), and I have problems coming up with a suggestion for who this could be.

I liked clip A and D the most. I have never played any instrument, so I don't have a lot of insight when it comes to characterizing different aspects of instrumental sound. Maybe I can learn a few things.

I think your concise but eloquent descriptions are interesting to read "even" without "technical" terms. It would be nice though if you could try anyway to explain why B sounds English to you. But if it's simply a very hunchy hunch, I don't want to "force" you to explain it more concretely.

[M forever]

the loneliest oboe thus far

That is so poetic again!

Who? No idea, but I hope there's a fasit to this little game?

What do you mean by that?

[Nipper]

Clip B
This tempo is a bit faster than A. It is still within the range of what sounds plausible to me. Attacks don't sound quite as precisely together with this band as they do with the one in A. The recording quality is also dull by comparison with A (though perfectly listenable and enjoyable).  At 0:45 there is more keening in the strings here than in A (a point in favor of B for me). At 3:00 the sudden increase in volume lacks impact—there is a missed opportunity to surprise.  It doesn't get as loud as it could, and the attack is just slightly ragged I think. The oboe solo sounds thinner and more nasal than that in A.  Perhaps this is a pretty good French orchestra on a bad outing. At 4:45 something sounds slightly odd to me. Are they all together or are the bass and treble lines not completely cohering? The soft passages in this version don't seem to create as much tension as in A.  They are just soft, not expectant. All in all I prefer A by a fair margin.

Clip C
Oh boy, this is probably going to be too fast for me, but let's see.  I think these are period instruments and an "historically informed"  tempo.  At 1:00-1:10 (to pick one spot of many) it just sounds too staccato for me.  I realize I've been conditioned by hearing traditional performances, but this just sounds superficial and glib when it goes so fast and when everything is so clipped. It ends up being dull rather than exciting. I'm going to guess this is Roger Norrington, based on one hearing of part of his 9th. The drums are making dull thuds—where's the skin? At 3:05 things are starting to sound a bit muddled, like they are playing too fast for their own good. At 4:10 the brass just sounds flat (and I don't mean the pitch). At 5:00 this conductor completely misses the chance for a big climax. And the oboe solo sounded completely pallid—another missed opportunity to actually do something instead of just going along like the dickens.  So, a pretty big thumbs down from me on this one. Disappointing.

[Nipper]

Anyway, welcome to "Mystery Orchestra" and thanks for your detailed review.

Thanks...I look forward to playing.

One poster said it sounds like a really dry recording with a lot of fake reverb though. Looks like you wouldn't agree.

Correct.

Do you find that good or bad? Some people hate hearing stuff like that on recordings, some find it adds a degree of authenticity because it gives you a feeling of "being there" because when you go to a live concert and sit close to the orchestra, you can sometimes hear such sounds, too.

As long as I'm not hearing things that I couldn't possibly hear in the hall (like breathing noises or clarinet keys being depressed) I don't mind it. 


Comments on B and C above. So far I like A best.

[M forever]

Clip B
At 0:45 there is more keening in the strings here than in A (a point in favor of B for me).

What does "keening" mean? Something like "digging in"? Not questioning the comment, just asking since I don't know that word in that context.

Clip B
At 4:45 something sounds slightly odd to me. Are they all together or are the bass and treble lines not completely cohering?

Maybe. Or maybe not. I am not allowed to say. What do others think?

Clip C
At 4:10 the brass just sounds flat (and I don’t mean the pitch).

Do you mean the trumpets or the stopped horn notes a few moments later?

[Nipper]

Clip D
The main thing I notice in this one is that the last note of the "fate" motif is drawn out to great length every time it comes around. At 6:25 it seems even longer than ever, and the effect becomes almost comic, because I find myself wondering how much longer it can possibly be held. I think I remember reading that Monteux did this in his recordings for Decca, and I know some of those were with the VPO, so I'll go out on a limb here and say this is Monteux/VPO.  I am also basing this on that solo oboe, which sounds quintessentially Viennese to me—a little thin in body, but very expressive, with a bit of a waver in it. I think I am picking up a bit of the braying sound in the brass that I remember from C. Kleiber/VPO as well.  Apart from the oddity of that long-held "fate" note, this seems well paced and properly propulsive, with a nice sense of tension in the piano passages. I think this latter is achieved by use of a quick decrescendo to make the transitions into the piano passages (as opposed to a complete and abrupt change of volume from loud to soft).

[Valentino]

What do you mean by that?

Sorry for being imprescise, M. You will reveal who's playing what at some time?

[M forever]

Thanks, Nipper - one more to go!

I will leave it at 5 clips for this round because I think it can get too much at some point. I think the 6 long clips of Zarathustra were almost a little bit of an overkill. I have many more great recordings of both pieces, but it may be better to return to them at a later time rather than flooding you with tons of clips.

Valentino - of course, it wouldn't make sense if I didn't, would it? I always reveal the clips at the end and say what I think about them, although my comments are obviously not "blind".

[rubio]

I think your concise but eloquent descriptions are interesting to read "even" without "technical" terms. It would be nice though if you could try anyway to explain why B sounds English to you. But if it's simply a very hunchy hunch, I don't want to "force" you to explain it more concretely.

So I did relisten to clip A and clip B, as I have guessed C. Davis/Staatskapelle Dresden for the first one, and Mackerras/RLPO for the 2nd one. Generally, the playing of clip A brings out the broad textures of this music, and the sound of the instruments (strings, brass, winds) are darker than clip A. It's more serious-sounding and more Viennese sounding than clip B. In a way the orchestral sound is bottom-heavy (like Karajan's BPO), and I think it suits this symphony.

What struck me as English sounding is how these dance-like rhythms bounces along after 1.25-1.40 and is repeated after 4.40-4.50. It kind of sounds like I remember Mackerras and one of the things I didn't like with his approach to this symphony. It's just a bit too light, happy-sounding for me. In comparison clip A maintains the grandeur and a darker atmosphere in these passages.

Clip B is probably a bit too flowing and lush, but I do like this alternative approach. I think I would like to invest.

[M forever]

Invest or investigate?


The question here is whether these qualities you associate with Mackerras are generally "English" somehow or maybe just Mackerras (although he is really Australian, but that doesn't hav much to do with your point) or maybe he is just one of a number of interpreters who have that quality, English or Australian or whatever else.

Which doesn't mean I confirm or deny we are hearing Mackerras here. Again, just general remarks.

I have guessed C. Davis/Staatskapelle Dresden for the first one, and Mackerras/RLPO for the 2nd one. Generally, the playing of clip A brings out the broad textures of this music, and the sound of the instruments (strings, brass, winds) are darker than clip A. It's more serious-sounding and more Viennese sounding than clip B.

You probably meant "are darker than clip B" in the second sentence. So you would say B lacks a "Viennese quality" better represented by A? If I understand you correctly, you mean that in a general way, not necessarily as in "from Vienna" (since you suspect Dresden as the origin of the recording), in a way meaning, "serious, heavy, with grandeur" or something like that?

[rubio]

Invest or investigate?

When I know who it is I probably would like to buy this CD, as long as it seems like the rest of the symphony is as good. So I guess I will need to investigate a bit as well.

Clip D could be Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin. I didn't remember this recording earlier on. I think I read he chose the old classicist approach.

[Nipper]

Clip E
A large ensemble of modern instruments, but the tempo is pretty brisk. Maybe this is from Harnoncourt's cycle.  I much prefer this tempo to that in clip C. The sonority is rich, quite reminiscent of orchestra A's. But the hall sound is different in this recording.  There is more reverberation here—a little too much for my taste, and I wonder if the sound engineers have fiddled a bit. The dynamic range is very wide, though there is not quite as much bass information as A had—I think that has both to do with the recording and with the actual orchestral balances. High, loud massed strings sound a bit glassy in places (4:50-5:30). The miking is close.  This is what I think of as typical modern digital sound.

I'm having a little trouble coming up with more to say about this one, and I'm not sure whether that's because five clips is one too many, or because the performance itself is not especially distinctive, competent but a bit faceless.  The oboe doing the solo sounds woodier to me than the others we have heard. I like the ones in A and D better, and if I had to pick two recordings out of this bunch to live with, those would be my choices.

[M forever]

Clip E
I’m having a little trouble coming up with more to say about this one, and I’m not sure whether that’s because five clips is one too many

Could be. I don't know how easily you overdose on Beethoven. But I think the thread will continue for a little while longer before I reveal the performers. So if you have any more comments later, there will probably still be time to post them. But please just reply again, don't edit your older posts, otherwise we might miss them.

[rubio]

I like the ones in A and D better, and if I had to pick two recordings out of this bunch to live with, those would be my choices.

It seems like we have the same taste here  .

[M forever]

Ah, a conspiracy! 

[Nipper]

What does "keening" mean? Something like "digging in"? Not questioning the comment, just asking since I don't know that word in that context.

"Keening" is "wailing," but it might not be such a good word choice here anyway. The effect I'm talking about is at 0:42-0:45 in clip B, and in 0:35-0:40 in clip A. Listening again more closely, I guess it's really nothing more than a crescendo and decrescendo in the strings (I think it must be in the score, since everyone does it to some extent.) In clip B it is handled a little bit differently than in A, though I can't say exactly how, and upon listening to A again I realize that the difference is quite subtle indeed--so subtle that I feel slightly embarrassed at having drawn attention to it.  Aural memory is very frail, isn't it?

Do you mean the trumpets or the stopped horn notes a few moments later?

The horns (actually at 4:07 rather than 4:10).  I'm only vaguely familiar with the idea of "stopping" a horn, but maybe that's much  of what I'm hearing.  The notes just sound very clipped and lacking in impact to me--if they are literally being "stopped," and that's in the score, then perhaps I shouldn't be complaining about it. But these period horns seem to get "choked" rather than just "stopped" (!).

I am actually quite curious about period performances and would like to hear more of them and keep an open mind. I just think it must be possible to find more expressiveness (yes, of course, a post-Romantic notion) in the playing than I hear in this excerpt.

[M forever]

upon listening to A again I realize that the difference is quite subtle indeed--so subtle that I feel slightly embarrassed at having drawn attention to it.

Not at all. It is very important to listen to details and note them. How important they are in the larger context is a different question. But that is actually fairly irrlevant. A musical performance consists out of countless (hopefully interesting) details. Anyone can decide which ones they find worth pointing out.

The horns (actually at 4:07 rather than 4:10).  I'm only vaguely familiar with the idea of "stopping" a horn, but maybe that's much  of what I'm hearing.  The notes just sound very clipped and lacking in impact to me--if they are literally being "stopped," and that's in the score, then perhaps I shouldn't be complaining about it. But these period horns seem to get "choked" rather than just "stopped" (!).

Stopping isn't expressedly written in the score, but certain notes could only be obtained with stopping or half-stopping anyway. The question is whether or not sometimes the composer wrote these notes *intending* the slightly muffled (or "choked") but at the same time "metallic" sound of the stopped notes.
For instance, the long f (sounding a flat) in the first horn at 4'04-4'06 is indeed half-stopped, and so are the first notes of the "sighing" motif heard in the horns twice at 4'14-4'17 and the "screaming" motif at 4'46 - Beethoven indeed writes sf here, and he must have had something like that in mind, I guess. The question is if one finds that the "scream of terror" the Mystery Performers produce at 4'46 is over the top or just "right".
The attack of the natural horn is indeed very round ("booo" instead of "taaa") and can be slightly brittle ("pfooo") in soft dynamics, and it is rather darker or rounder sounding than more or less all modern horns (only the Vienna horns come very close) - but that is the way these instruments sounded.
Right at 4'07, that's just piano with horns mixed with clarinets and bassoons though. I wouldn't expect them to be any "brighter" here.

And yes, it is a performance on period instruments. That much I can "admit" since several players have positively identified that, and there is no point in making too big a mystery out of something that several people have already figured out. But I won't tell you which of the many period recordings it is until the bitter end.

I am actually quite curious about period performances and would like to hear more of them and keep an open mind. I just think it must be possible to find more expressiveness (yes, of course, a post-Romantic notion) in the playing than I hear in this excerpt.

A post-romantic notion, maybe, or maybe it is just a *different kind* of expressiveness, a different expressive vocabulary than what you are used to and expect. But that is actually a complete separate discussion in itself.

[rubio]

The question here is whether these qualities you associate with Mackerras are generally "English" somehow or maybe just Mackerras (although he is really Australian, but that doesn't hav much to do with your point) or maybe he is just one of a number of interpreters who have that quality, English or Australian or whatever else.

Yes, I have been thinking about that. It could be that I associate music more with conductors than with the orchestras themselves. Still I would be a bit surprised if clip B turns out to be one of the classical Central European orchestras like BPO, SD, RCO or VPO.

You probably meant "are darker than clip B" in the second sentence. So you would say B lacks a "Viennese quality" better represented by A? If I understand you correctly, you mean that in a general way, not necessarily as in "from Vienna" (since you suspect Dresden as the origin of the recording), in a way meaning, "serious, heavy, with grandeur" or something like that?

Yes, I meant darker than clip B. Clip D has some of the same darker sonorities which I like for this symphony. I mean Viennese (or more correctly Central-European/German/Austrian) quality which I find lacking in clip B. I don't find this quality to be mandatory for a succesful Beethoven perfomance, but for symphony no. 5 I guess I look for this particular sound.