Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[prémont]

My suggestion, Bunny, would be HIPP = Historically Informed Period Performance.

[jlaurson]

Considering the number of my LvB symphony sets - some time ago I acquired even the mandatory  Barenboim set  -  a new set has got to be exceptional,  if I am going to get it. I hear some posters say the Dausgaard set is exceptional, but the Järvi set, does it offer something quite new compared to MacKerras, Zinmann and Harnoncourt?

To the smart ass (I mean that in a loving way) inquiring about the milk: regular. Min. 3.8% fat! "Skim Milk" is not milk... it's some form of diluted water. Yuck. I want whatever is closest to sucking cow-ti##*es.

Yes, yes... I understand that you want the "truly special". I do, too. And without getting into a "who's got more LvB cycles" discussion (it encourages the wrong sort of crowd), take it on good faith that our collections are probably not that far apart. And I wouldn't recommend Jaervi if I didn't think it really was that special.

You should be aware that I think the same of the Barenboim, which you apparently don't find entirely to your taste... but perhaps you see how that's a matter of subjective taste, rather than lack of specialness. At least Barenboim isn't just like any other ol' cycle. Neither is Jaervi. Jaervi smacks those Beethoven symphonies down like a wet bitch. (I have no idea what that even means...  it just feels right. I'm not sure whether Jaervi would smack down a wet bitch or whether a wet bitch would smack down Beethoven, but I imagine something really smacky. Like so:



Start with one disc... in Europe they're very reasonably priced SACDs, anyway.

If I only kept three cycles, Jaervi would be among them. Barenboim. And then I would have to think long and hard which third cycle to keep. Anima Eterna and Kletzki, two favorites around here, would not make the cut. Gardiner, Karajan 70s, Jochum-Concertgebouw, and Vanska would be among the candidates, I s'pose.

[Marc]

I think Zinman is a bit superficial, and regardless, wouldn't compare him to Harnoncourt, whose set has so many layers/dimensions.

Another agreement here.
After reading all those extremely positive reviews, I was eager to hear it .... and left a bit disappointed.
I should have listened to Zinman first, and after him to Brüggen, Van Immerseel and Harnoncourt.

I do really like what I have of Jarvi, however, for his vigor and unrestrained approach. I think he sounds very modern, but kind of HIP in that he wants to deliver the score unadulterated and without romantic additions, and maybe achieve the impact (but not the sound) of the originals in their time--idealized, of course.

This is in my opinion also true of MacKerras, and also in principle of Klemperer(!) and Kletzki(!) and others. Has Järvi really something new to offer?

Here's an advice: to find that out, listen to him!

[George]

Notes to self:

1.) Track down, torture, then kill George.

[prémont]

Mind you: essential or mandatory isn't the same as favourite.

Spot on, and Jens just mentioned the Järvi set as his favorite concerning Symphonies 1,2 & 3.

If a person would like to know the development of Beethoven interpretation, some HIP-performances are mandatory.
But this list might be very short.

I am afraid it would be very long, - this is my reason for trying to make it shorter.

But of the (semi-)HIP performers, I certainly would mention Harnoncourt, Brüggen and Van Immerseel.

And Hogwood and Goodman?

Come to think of it: maybe Zinman is essential, because his integral eventually became part of a bargain Beethoven Very Large Box Set, and therefore reached a lot of Beethoven listeners and influenced their reception of and their view at this music.

[Marc]

Spot on, and Jens just mentioned the Järvi set as his favorite concerning Symphonies 1,2 & 3.I am afraid it would be very long, - this is my reason for trying to make it shorter.
And Harnoncourt and Goodman?

Dunno about Goodman. (Hence the earlier remark about my lack of survey.)
And Harnoncourt did get a mention by yours truly.

[prémont]

Dunno about Goodman. (Hence the earlier remark about my lack of survey.)
And Harnoncourt did get a mention by yours truly.

Sorry, I meant Hogwood, not Harnoncourt, have edited the post.

[prémont]

If I only kept three cycles, Jaervi would be among them. Barenboim. And then I would have to think long and hard which third cycle to keep. Anima Eterna and Kletzki, two favorites around here, would not make the cut. Gardiner, Karajan 70s, Jochum-Concertgebouw, and Vanska would be among the candidates, I s'pose.[/size][/font]

It is the fact that our tastes differ that much, which make me sceptical to your panegyrics about Järvi. The ones you mention would never be among my chosen three.
But if I should try Järvi, which of the Symphonies would you advise me to sample?

[DarkAngel]

I think Zinman is a bit superficial, and regardless, wouldn't compare him to Harnoncourt, whose set has so many layers/dimensions.

I am interested in the Dausgaard, but I only really want the symphonies.

Zinman is still a good set especailly at the extremely low used prices, but like you given the choice between Harnoncourt and Zinman I would not hesitate to take Harnoncourt.

Reminds me the very best Beethoven Overtures collection is by Harnoncourt followed by Zinman in a limited field, compared to famous the Karajan collection I had for long time these jump out of the speakers with great dramatic energy and clarity of textures. Zinman actually better in the overtures than the symphonies!

[Coopmv]

It is the fact that our tastes differ that much, which make me sceptical to your panegyrics about Järvi. The ones you mention would never be among my chosen three.
But if I should try Järvi, which of the Symphonies would you advise me to sample?

You ain't kidding.  No two members have exactly the same tastes for the same work.  I like Barenboim much more as a pianist than as a conductor.  I will pass on his Beethoven cycle.

[Marc]

Sorry, I meant Hogwood, not Harnoncourt, have edited the post.

I'm sorry Premont, but I dunno 'bout Hogwood either. Considering his efforts in Mozart, I think he could be very interesting.
At least more interesting than Norrington's first HIP-set. Which created a shock at the time .... but is relatively shallow compared to f.i. Harnoncourt and Van Immerseel, IMO.

[jlaurson]

It is the fact that our tastes differ that much, which make me sceptical to your panegyrics about Järvi. The ones you mention would never be among my chosen three.
But if I should try Järvi, which of the Symphonies would you advise me to sample?

Just one panegyric about Jaervi is enough.

Depends on your predilections. Generally I'd say: The Third (comes with the 8th): http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1409.

There is LOADS of competition in the Third, of course, but this one should kick down all doors. The Hurwitzer, Alex Ross, my boss at WETA all agree... pretty diverse crowd for a completely unanimous sentiment.

If you think you'd rather be surprised by a fantastic Second (comes with the 6th), go with that. http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1754

Either of those two should either do the trick or tell you that you are immune to his Beethoven.

[prémont]

Either of those two should either do the trick or tell you that you are immune to his Beethoven.

Even if I turn up to like him, what I probably will, that does not make him special.
I shall try no.3, then.

[jlaurson]

Even if I turn up to like him, what I probably will, that does not make him special.
I shall try no.3, then.

Good grief, you are a tough sell. I feel like I'm dealing used cars, here. Just listen to it, already. 

[Bunny]

To the smart ass (I mean that in a loving way) inquiring about the milk: regular. Min. 3.8% fat! "Skim Milk" is not milk... it's some form of diluted water. Yuck. I want whatever is closest to sucking cow-ti##*es.

I'll keep that picture in mind as I walk through the snowless streets to the completely stocked supermarkets of NYC... and I mean that in only the most affectionate way.

Yes, yes... I understand that you want the "truly special". I do, too. And without getting into a "who's got more LvB cycles" discussion (it encourages the wrong sort of crowd), take it on good faith that our collections are probably not that far apart. And I wouldn't recommend Jaervi if I didn't think it really was that special.

I'm getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on that set.  If only the box set comes out soon!

You should be aware that I think the same of the Barenboim, which you apparently don't find entirely to your taste... but perhaps you see how that's a matter of subjective taste, rather than lack of specialness. At least Barenboim isn't just like any other ol' cycle. Neither is Jaervi. Jaervi smacks those Beethoven symphonies down like a wet bitch. (I have no idea what that even means...  it just feels right. I'm not sure whether Jaervi would smack down a wet bitch or whether a wet bitch would smack down Beethoven, but I imagine something really smacky. Like so:

Start with one disc... in Europe they're very reasonably priced SACDs, anyway.

If I only kept three cycles, Jaervi would be among them. Barenboim. And then I would have to think long and hard which third cycle to keep. Anima Eterna and Kletzki, two favorites around here, would not make the cut. Gardiner, Karajan 70s, Jochum-Concertgebouw, and Vanska would be among the candidates, I s'pose.

How about Dausgaard?  He may not bitch-slap Beethoven, but his cycle is not lacking in impact.

[DavidRoss]

Loving this thread--thanks, y'all!   

Jens, you have convinced me that I must hear (at least some) Järvi, whom I like well enough in other repertoire, even though I surely have no need for yet another cycle.  Amidst all this discussion of Historically Informed Performance on Modern Instruments recordings, straying so far as to include much mention of Barenboim's decidedly anti-HIP cycle, I'd like to muddy the waters even further (or, perhaps, further promote my apparently very idiosyncratic and far-from-mainstream tastes  ) by noting that among recent modern instrument cycles I'm particularly fond of the Abbado/BP set recorded in Rome.

Choosing only three cycles would be tough.  Brüggen would certainly be among them, and Abbado these days, but for a third...well, the more I think about it, the gladder I am that I don't have to make such a choice!

[Bunny]

Zinman is still a good set especailly at the extremely low used prices, but like you given the choice between Harnoncourt and Zinman I would not hesitate to take Harnoncourt.

Reminds me the very best Beethoven Overtures collection is by Harnoncourt followed by Zinman in a limited field, compared to famous the Karajan collection I had for long time these jump out of the speakers with great dramatic energy and clarity of textures. Zinman actually better in the overtures than the symphonies!

Those overtures are also a part of the Dausgaard cycle, and they are done wonderfully.

[jlaurson]

Jens, you have convinced me that I must hear (at least some) Järvi...

I'd like to muddy the waters even further by noting that among recent modern instrument cycles I'm particularly fond of the Abbado/BP set recorded in Rome.

1.) Check from Sony should be in the mail, by now.
2.) I've gotten the Abbado, too... I think as a gift (because the packaging, the names... it seemed appropriate as a gift). Then I listened to it and got a copy for myself, too. It really is quite something. Whzzzzzzing!

How about Dausgaard?  He may not bitch-slap Beethoven, but his cycle is not lacking in impact.

Are you phrase-taunting me??? But seriously... I would LOVE to hear Dausgaard--from what I've heard about him, he's the LvB cycle I don't have and most want to have. I'm working on getting my greedy little hands on it. I've dispatched a desperate note to my cat.

[DarkAngel]

Those overtures are also a part of the Dausgaard cycle, and they are done wonderfully.

Indeed, if the Dausgaard's Beethoven overtures were available on a special 2 CD set they would be best version available with Harnoncourt demoted to #2.........

Even though I complain about the cost of Dausgaard there is some great extras included throughout those current 10 Cds......and you are right that CD 11 is still needed for Emperor piano concerto #5!

[Bunny]

Indeed, if the Dausgaard's Beethoven overtures were available on a special 2 CD set they would be best version available with Harnoncourt demoted to #2.........

Even though I complain about the cost of Dausgaard there is some great extras included throughout those current 10 Cds......and you are right that CD 11 is still needed for Emperor piano concerto #5!

Don't forget the violin concerto played by a violin.  Btw, what is to stop anyone from taking all of the overtures and making them into a playlist by themselves?