Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[DavidW]

Quite agree.

This is in my opinion also true of MacKerras, and also in principle of Klemperer(!) and Kletzki(!) and others. Has Järvi really something new to offer?

I've just listened to the 3rd and 8th from Jarvi and now I can say YES!  I have heard things that I have not heard anywhere else.  And he finds these little moments with an outburst of ferocity or a tender moment of sweet indulgence that I have not heard any other conductor find.  The Eroica has many jaw dropping moments... I've only heard two dozen or so recordings but out of them Jarvi is unique and perhaps superior, even if not definitely worth hearing.  The eighth from Jarvi is also extraordinary, but it doesn't have quite as many moments as the third.

I think that what Jens has said is completely 100% dead on.

[prémont]

Thanks, DavidW, the Third must be the right place to start.
Have you planned to acquire the complete set?

[DavidW]

I don't know if I'll go for complete, but I will here more from that cycle for sure.

[Bunny]

Are you phrase-taunting me??? But seriously... I would LOVE to hear Dausgaard--from what I've heard about him, he's the LvB cycle I don't have and most want to have. I'm working on getting my greedy little hands on it. I've dispatched a desperate note to my cat.

Absolutely not!  I just wanted to avoid using the word "impactful" without resorting to obscenity.   

Oh that Järvi Cycle!!  It just stays in my mind.  I'm practically salivating at the thought of it.

[jlaurson]

Absolutely not!  I just wanted to avoid using the word "impactful" without resorting to obscenity.   

Oh that Järvi Cycle!!  It just stays in my mind.  I'm practically salivating at the thought of it.

OBSCENITY?

Context, my friend! Context.

For example -- do you know this children's fable:



You will find, from top to bottom, a cock, a pussy, a bitch, an ass. And absolutely no obscenity.
(Bonus points for the first one to point out why posting this picture is not off topic in this thread.)

[Bunny]

OBSCENITY?

Context, my friend! Context.

For example -- do you know this children's fable:



You will find, from top to bottom, a cock, a pussy, a bitch, an ass. And absolutely no obscenity.
(Bonus points for the first one to point out why posting this picture is not off topic in this thread.)

Ha ha.  Even in the USA little children hear about the Town Musicians of Bremen.  Tales Grimm, or not so grim...

[Marc]

Ha ha.  Even in the USA little children hear about the Town Musicians of Bremen.  Tales Grimm, or not so grim...

Oh!
I thought it was about some self-appointed scholar who was to prove that the Carnaval des Animaux was actually the lost 11th symphony by Beethoven?

[DarkAngel]

Don't forget the violin concerto played by a violin.  Btw, what is to stop anyone from taking all of the overtures and making them into a playlist by themselves?

You read my mind, as I was sitting watching superbowl I thought later tonight I can make my own CDR of the Dausgaard overtures for stereo system playback...........

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Never heard about that Bremen fairy tale till now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Musicians_of_Bremen

Relevant since Jarvi's orchestra is Bremen German Chamber Philharmonic

[Bunny]

Relevant since Jarvi's orchestra is Bremen German Chamber Philharmonic

Duh       

[George]

Jarvi LvB 5 Movements 1 and 2, Live 2008 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWl4iX0krQ

Is this the same tempo as the performances that you guys have been discussing? Sounds fast.

[Bunny]

Bingo. Your bonus points: . . . . . . . . .

I'm the one who identified them as the Bremen musicians.  Do I have to also state the obvious?

[jlaurson]

Bingo. Your bonus points: . . . . . . . . .

I'm the one who identified them as the Bremen musicians.  Do I have to also state the obvious?

I was going to give them to you... but then Dark Angel stunned me by stating the obvious to such a degree that I thought that maybe you had in fact...
Consider them re-assigned.

[DavidW]

Jarvi LvB 5 Movements 1 and 2, Live 2008 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWl4iX0krQ

Is this the same tempo as the performances that you guys have been discussing? Sounds fast.

Yeah he's fast.   Actually I think it's pretty common for the modern recordings to be fast.  They are using those Del Mar editions.  He's not always a fast conductor, when I heard his Tchaikovsky (years ago) on tv, he was slower than usual for that symphony.  Jarvi approaches Beethoven from a classical perspective, but other composers from a romantic.  I haven't heard his 20th century stuff, have a feeling that he specializes his approach based upon the era, possibly the composer.

[George]

Thanks David! 

[Bunny]

I'm the one who identified them as the Bremen musicians.  Do I have to also state the obvious?


I was going to give them to you... but then Dark Angel stunned me by stating the obvious to such a degree that I thought that maybe you had in fact...
Consider them re-assigned.

I used to read those tales to my daughters at bedtime. Or at least the ones not likely to keep them up longer.  Apparently DA doesn't have kids yet.

[Que]

Que, it all depends on whether you use the acronym HIP as Historically Informed Performance or Historic Instrument Performance. 

(...) It becomes increasingly difficult to separate these matters.  I think perhaps we need a thread entitled Historic INSTRUMENT Performance for the strictest of the Hipsters. 

I do not go along with this reason that seems to have become all the fashion here. The "I" in HIP does not stand for "inspired". Taking along a few ideas here and there, mainly about balance within the orchestra and transparency by reducing its size, in order to achieve an actual very new, modern ideal of articulation and transparency in orchestral playing does not make a performance HIP. Be it that that ideal has been developed under the influence of the HIP movement as it may!

And there lies the big difference between these two movements: all these "modernity" conductors do not aim for a historically accurate performance. They just use some techniques to achieve their own musical ideals. As for the issue of the instruments: truly a non-discussion as far as I'm concerned. In order to achieve historically accurate playing style & and techniques AND historically accurate instrumental sound, one needs historically accurate instruments, whether original or newly produced copies, PERIOD.

So the whole "lean & mean" category, so popular now but already dating back to Erich Kleiber is not HIP.

No matter what the title of this thread will be: Järvi is not HIP, Dausgaard is not HIP, and neither is Zinman. Nor is freaking Colin Davis, Arturo Toscanini or Daniel Barenboim.

Q

[Coopmv]

I do not go along with this reason that seems to have become all the fashion here. The "I" in HIP does not stand for "inspired". Taking along a few ideas here and there, mainly about balance within the orchestra and transparency by reducing its size, in order to achieve an actual very new, modern ideal of articulation and transparency in orchestral playing does not make a performance HIP. Be it that that ideal has been developed under the influence of the HIP movement as it may!

And there lies the big difference between these two movements: all these "modernity" conductors do not aim for a historically accurate performance. They just use some techniques to achieve their own musical ideals. As for the issue of the instruments: truly a non-discussion as far as I'm concerned. In order to achieve historically accurate playing style & and techniques AND historically accurate instrumental sound, one needs historically accurate instruments, whether original or newly produced copies, PERIOD.

Q

So does the I stands for "inspired" or "informed" in the acronym HIP?

[Brian]

No matter what the title of this thread will be: Järvi is not HIP, Dausgaard is not HIP, and neither is Zinman. Nor is freaking Colin Davis, Arturo Toscanini or Daniel Barenboim.

Setting aside that last bit (Barenboim is the antithesis of Dausgaard/Järvi), ... so what we need is a new label. We need a new name to assign to this school of transparency-based, fleet-footed interpreters of the Beethoven nine. What is it?

[Brian]

I've just listened to the 3rd and 8th from Jarvi and now I can say YES!  I have heard things that I have not heard anywhere else.  And he finds these little moments with an outburst of ferocity or a tender moment of sweet indulgence that I have not heard any other conductor find.  The Eroica has many jaw dropping moments... I've only heard two dozen or so recordings but out of them Jarvi is unique and perhaps superior, even if not definitely worth hearing.  The eighth from Jarvi is also extraordinary, but it doesn't have quite as many moments as the third.

I think that what Jens has said is completely 100% dead on.

I have never, ever, ever heard another interpreter of 'Eroica' who makes the first variation of the theme (or the -2th, depending on what theme you have in mind) into a chamber music work for solo violinists, violist and cellist. A really striking effect, whether it's authentic or not (I genuinely don't know).

[Bunny]

So does the I stands for "inspired" or "informed" in the acronym HIP?

In New York it stands for "informed," and by informed it means that the performance is influenced by the period performance scholarship.