Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Marc]

So, by your standards, it's a bad thing if I even feel like insulting someone, not actually doing it. Damn, you must think I'm an angel! Thanks for that, but in fact I am far from it, I just have enough self-control (most of the time) to keep my feelings in check. I think you can probably count on 1 or 2 fingers the number of people that have been driven away from here by my attitude.

Gurn, nobody's an angel. I'm aware of that.

0:)

Nevertheless: writing down that you feel like to insult some board members isn't a smart move for a moderator, IMHO.

But hey, you're the mod, so I'll remain silent 'bout that.
I will only feel like writing down that's it's not a smart move, OK?

For the rest: I'm not sure if I really made my HIP-point. If I read your post, I'm almost sure I didn't make it clear to you. Which could be my mistake, btw, because of my clumsy English sometimes.

Certainly if you want to make a genealogy of HIPness, and even include every conductor who ever swung a baton, you are welcome to do so. I don't really do any of that stuff, nor even care about it. I just listen to what I like, and a surprising amount of it is performed on period instruments. Much of that is performed in a historically informed manner. All the other stuff I really don't care about.

This is exactly how I experience things myself.
Hence I'm not that fond of categorizing.
Hence I understand when a topic is getting out of hand, because various definitions are used by various members.
Hence I don't like that members are treated as ignorant, because they use different or other definitions.
Hence my (somewhat agressive, apologies again) reactions to that.

For the rest, I think I'm a rather relaxed guy.



Maybe it wasn't a wise idea to watch the entire Twin Peaks tv-series again in about a week time.
I love it, but it also irritates me in a way: why did all those bad things had to happen to such a nice town?!
Next time, I'd better watch The Sound of Music eight days a week.

[Renfield]

Looking at this thread, it can be seen most of the discussion has revolved around HIP, at the very least. All the way from the beginning, which was a question about HIP Beethoven, regardless of what its answer entailed or did not entail.

(Namely which cycles are or aren't HIP, or what HIP is. This is all still about HIP!)


I have thus taken the liberty of starting this general thread, to include more than just 'whatever doesn't fit in this one'. Clearly, there's no rule saying anyone needs to use it, but I think that is the most needed other option, thread-wise.

[DavidW]

Maybe it wasn't a wise idea to watch the entire Twin Peaks tv-series again in about a week time.
I love it, but it also irritates me in a way: why did all those bad things had to happen to such a nice town?!
Next time, I'd better watch The Sound of Music eight days a week.

And then you wonder why you are rewatching those weird episodes after the murder is wrapped up, just to get pissed off at that unsatisfying end.  And then you remember that it's self-consistent with the beginning and relax.

[Renfield]

And then you wonder why you are rewatching those weird episodes after the murder is wrapped up, just to get pissed off at that unsatisfying end.  And then you remember that it's self-consistent with the beginning and relax.

That sounds awfully like describing a discussion on what historically-informed performance precisely entails.

[DavidW]

hahaha!  It really does, doesn't it?  Perfect!

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, nobody's an angel. I'm aware of that.

0:)

Nevertheless: writing down that you feel like to insult some board members isn't a smart move for a moderator, IMHO.

But hey, you're the mod, so I'll remain silent 'bout that.
I will only feel like writing down that's it's not a smart move, OK?

For the rest: I'm not sure if I really made my HIP-point. If I read your post, I'm almost sure I didn't make it clear to you. Which could be my mistake, btw, because of my clumsy English sometimes.
This is exactly how I experience things myself.
Hence I'm not that fond of categorizing.
Hence I understand when a topic is getting out of hand, because various definitions are used by various members.
Hence I don't like that members are treated as ignorant, because they use different or other definitions.
Hence my (somewhat agressive, apologies again) reactions to that.

For the rest, I think I'm a rather relaxed guy.



Maybe it wasn't a wise idea to watch the entire Twin Peaks tv-series again in about a week time.
I love it, but it also irritates me in a way: why did all those bad things had to happen to such a nice town?!
Next time, I'd better watch The Sound of Music eight days a week.

Well, Marc, I wouldn't want you to come away from this feeling as though I was particularly, or even generally, singling you out for abuse. At the time that I first became irritated with this thread, you hadn't even begun posting in it yet. You were merely following and expanding a well-trodden path. Well, OK, really expanding it...   Anyway, I'm feeling kinda like Don (Bulldog-person) was talking about: just because I like (and even prefer) a certain performance style, doesn't mean I don't like others too. I don't necessarily want to force them into one lump and discuss them as though they were merely variations on a theme.

"Beethoven for PIon's" sounds like the perfect place for me. If Jens will stand for it, of course...

[Marc]

And then you wonder why you are rewatching those weird episodes after the murder is wrapped up, just to get pissed off at that unsatisfying end. And then you remember that it's self-consistent with the beginning and relax.

Yeah!
Relaxation is slowly coming.

I remember, when it was televized, I was shocked by the way sweet Audrey Horne was killed (exploding with the entire bank!) and of course I was also shocked what happened to Annie the former Nun and to her lover Dale Cooper :
how's Annie?
how's Annie?
how's Annie?
(horrible 'killer Bob' grin)

I must admit: I still feel it's unfair.

That sounds awfully like describing a discussion on what historically-informed performance precisely entails.

Yeah!

[DavidRoss]

I finally listened to some of those Amazon clips of Paavo Järvi's cycle and liked what I heard--and was surprised by what is obviously a relatively small, properly Classical-era-sized orchestra.  A youtube search turned up this performance of the German Chamber Philharmonic of Bremen under Järvi performing the Eroica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XL2ha18i5w --a properly sized orchestra, indeed, and a performance that further piques my interest in their recording of the cycle.

I also found this interview with Järvi in which he discusses the orchestra, historically informed performance, understanding Beethoven as a classicist first but with Romantic expressiveness, the correctness of Beethoven's metronome markings, and other items that some here may find of interest: http://paavoproject.blogspot.com/2008/03/paavo-jrvis-reasons-for-recording.html .

Already I foresee acquiring yet another cycle once this one is released as a discounted box set. 

[Sergeant Rock]

I remember, when it was televized, I was shocked by the way sweet Audrey Horne was killed (exploding with the entire bank!)

Sherilyn Fenn has said in interviews that her character survived the explosion. That would have been revealed in the third season had the series been extended. So, relax, Marc, our favorite Twin Peaks' girl is alive and well 



And now back to our regularly scheduled Beethoven discussion.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

I finally listened to some of those Amazon clips of Paavo Järvi's cycle and liked what I heard--and was surprised by what is obviously a relatively small, properly Classical-era-sized orchestra.  A youtube search turned up this performance of the German Chamber Philharmonic of Bremen under Järvi performing the Eroica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XL2ha18i5w --a properly sized orchestra, indeed, and a performance that further piques my interest in their recording of the cycle.

I also found this interview with Järvi in which he discusses the orchestra, historically informed performance, understanding Beethoven as a classicist first but with Romantic expressiveness, the correctness of Beethoven's metronome markings, and other items that some here may find of interest: http://paavoproject.blogspot.com/2008/03/paavo-jrvis-reasons-for-recording.html .

Already I foresee acquiring yet another cycle once this one is released as a discounted box set. 

Très intéressant.

[Marc]

Sherilyn Fenn has said in interviews that her character survived the explosion. That would have been revealed in the third season had the series been extended. So, relax, Marc, our favorite Twin Peaks' girl is alive and well 

Sarge, thanks a lot for posting this!
This is such a relief. I did have some bad nights again lately, after watching the Finale. Now I dare to breathe and sleep again.

I finally listened to some of those Amazon clips of Paavo Järvi's cycle and liked what I heard--and was surprised by what is obviously a relatively small, properly Classical-era-sized orchestra.  A youtube search turned up this performance of the German Chamber Philharmonic of Bremen under Järvi performing the Eroica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XL2ha18i5w --a properly sized orchestra, indeed, and a performance that further piques my interest in their recording of the cycle.

I also found this interview with Järvi in which he discusses the orchestra, historically informed performance, understanding Beethoven as a classicist first but with Romantic expressiveness, the correctness of Beethoven's metronome markings, and other items that some here may find of interest: http://paavoproject.blogspot.com/2008/03/paavo-jrvis-reasons-for-recording.html.

David, thanks for posting this, too!

[Franco]

I finally listened to some of those Amazon clips of Paavo Järvi's cycle and liked what I heard--and was surprised by what is obviously a relatively small, properly Classical-era-sized orchestra.  A youtube search turned up this performance of the German Chamber Philharmonic of Bremen under Järvi performing the Eroica: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XL2ha18i5w --a properly sized orchestra, indeed, and a performance that further piques my interest in their recording of the cycle.

I also found this interview with Järvi in which he discusses the orchestra, historically informed performance, understanding Beethoven as a classicist first but with Romantic expressiveness, the correctness of Beethoven's metronome markings, and other items that some here may find of interest: http://paavoproject.blogspot.com/2008/03/paavo-jrvis-reasons-for-recording.html .

Already I foresee acquiring yet another cycle once this one is released as a discounted box set. 

Yes, I've been posting about this set since hearing #s 4 & 7 a week or so ago, and since getting  #s 3 & 8.  I possibly also saw the same interview you refer to and was impressed by his perspective - and have been very impressed with the recordings themselves - but may download them all before the box set comes out.

[Leon]

I am shocked - shocked, I say - that a thread merely including the qualifier "HIP" would have generated so much controversy? 

But, I recently read about the Krivine cycle (which is described as performed on period instruments, so it technically belongs in this thread) but wondered if anyone here had heard works from it and might care to offer an opinion:

[asin]B004H6P2QA[/asin]

The Fanfare reviews I read were generally complimentary, and it is very reasonably priced, so I am going to buy it in any event.  Still, I'd appreciate hearing what some GMG members have to say.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have this, Arnold;

[asin]B002YEQRFW[/asin]

I have found it quite enjoyable, actually. I haven't heard anything else from the cycle, but if they are all at this level, hard to be disappointed. France seems to have developed a pretty good culture of PI players in recent years. Maybe where it will cause me to evaluate my opinion of them...

[Coopmv]

This thread has been inactive for almost a year ...     

[jlaurson]

Already I foresee acquiring yet another cycle once this one is released as a discounted box set. 

No need/time to wait until it is discounted. (Not any time soon, I reckon.) It is stupendous. Best Third, in my book, overtaking - at last - Gardiner/ORR in that slot. And all the rest is right up there... making it

http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1409 3 & 8
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1754 2 & 6


http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=212

Beethoven is always considered and thought of as a, maybe even the, "great composer". If forced to choose the 'greatest' composer (while not trying to be excessively smart by insisting on Orlando Gibbons), the majority of votes would be cast for either Beethoven or Bach. That's fairly obvious and uncontroversial: both are what we think of as geniuses. Notable only the absence of Mozart, who in this imaginary study (based on informed conjecture, not research) came in a distant third. But ask who the most popular composer was, Mozart would win hands down. And for all I know, Tchaikovsky might beat Bach for third place. Stab at this discrepancy between how Mozart and Beethoven are perceived, thought of, and differently appreciated and you poke at the very fundamental assumptions, pretensions, misunderstanding, controversies, inconsistencies, hypocrisies, and contradictions that classical music (quotation marks optional) is embroiled in...

[Geo Dude]

I read through this thread over the past few days and it had some real gems in it.  M's post on the meaning of HIP on the first page before he got into the inevitable pissing match resulting from people disagreeing with him is an obvious one.  Another is Elgarian's enthusiasm upon discovering the Immerseel set and discovering that he can, in fact, enjoy Beethoven's work.

Among the gems is this quote that apparently gave Karl a good, hearty laugh, and with good reason!

The No1 Beethoven Superfan in the world does not give bad advice about Beethoven.

And another one from Rod that resulted from DavidRoss asking him if he reviews as Santa Fe Listener on Amazon (In Rod's defense, SFL hates everything that is even remotely related to HIP so I suspect that's not the case ):

I will add that I can safely say I have spent more hours listening to Beethoven, performed HIP and otherwise, than the rest of GMG put together. I recommend you do not concern yourself with my taste, if you find yourself disagreeing with me I suggest the problem lies closer to home...

I also appreciated this beautiful testament to the joy and importance of HIP written by DavidRoss.  The third paragraph is particularly well done:

Just as I prefer to see Wagner staged as he envisioned it, with nymphs and dwarves and dragons, etc., rather than crack whores, capitalists, and drag queens, so I prefer to hear Beethoven as he imagined it, with the instrumental sonorities of his day, the size and balance of forces he intended, the shifting tempos and dynamics he sought, and so on. 

Insofar as historical scholarship can inform us regarding such matters, and then such information can be applied to contemporary practice to arrive at a reasonable semblance of what Beethoven (Bach, Mozart, et al) probably had in mind, I'm all for it!  In the first place because my respect for such masters commands interest in hearing what they were aiming for, insofar as that can be known.  Beyond that, however, I simply love the delightfully scrunchy, squawky, blatty sounds of period instruments, I love the clarity of smaller forces that permits each voice to be heard, and I love the joyful enthusiasm I hear in the sprightly tempos, vigorous dynamics, and activist rubato of the Historically Informed Period Instrument Performances that really seem to get it right!  HIPIP, hooray!

I grew up at a time when post-Romantic performance practice had all but killed the joyful spirit of much baroque and classical and even Romantic music, burying it in a heavy coffin lined with a thick padding of homogenous sound produced by enormous orchestras with overweighted strings and a stultifying sense of grave importance.  Boring, ponderous mush!  The HIP movement tore open the casket in which such music had long been buried and exposed it to the light of day, energizing it and letting in burst forth in a renewed spirit of playful joy.  And this movement has in turn inspired many contemporary large orchestras and players on modern instruments to incorporate some historically informed practices in their performances.  And thanks to all of this the performance of classical music today is far richer and more vital than it was 40 or 50 or 60 years ago--and my appreciation for and enjoyment of this music has grown as well...and sometimes in surprising ways.

For instance, growing up in an era in which Karajan was the 800 pound gorilla of orchestral classical music, I never cared much for Brahms's symphonies and thought him vastly overrated.  Mackerras changed that, and what I've heard of Gardiner's cycle is changing it further.  Bach's suites for solo cello and his sonatas & partitas for solo violin have been transformed from austere monuments to vital songs of joy.  And the incorporation of HIP attributes such as brisk tempos, lean textures, and clarity of voices into contemporary mainstream practice has vitalized many an otherwise traditional "big band" performance--and not just of "bewigged" music, but of 20th Century music as well.

In short, the range of contemporary practice, whether narrowly HIP, broadly informed by HIP, or in reaction to HIP, appears to me as a tremendously exciting and revitalizing feature of the music we all love.

And then there was this gem from Antoine (though I think it rightly should have been delivered by Gurn ):

There is a character in the movie played excellently by Tim Piggot-Smith, one von Dietrichstein --- a Viennese nobleman, a typical representative of his caste: not a bad man per se (he turns out to be a very knowledgeable music lover) but full of prejudices, including musical ones (when told by Lobkowitz he'd hear something very exciting, he replies: Haydn?).

I'm sorry, but I really like this guy.   

Oh, and the thread was even useful from a musical perspective and managed to save me money at the same time.  Well, sort of.  I was originally going to get Goodman's set to supplement Immerseel and Abbado's Rome set but decided to hold off on that one for now and get Hogwood's set instead, which cuts roughly a quarter off the price.  On the other hand, this thread made me hell-bent on trying Jarvi's Eroica which pretty much balances out the price, but I doubt I'll mind.

Also, I'll give in and throw my hat in the ring in the 'what constitutes HIP and what do we call related stuff' argument that has ruled the last five pages of this thread.  I refer to modern instrument, chamber orchestra performances that use interpretations similar to HIP period performances as....HIP influenced.  And yes, I would personally happily discuss such performances in this thread alongside period instrument recordings as long as we don't end up banging our collective heads against the wall again over whether Toscanini should be discussed here because he employed quick tempos.

[Gurn Blanston]

I read through this thread over the past few days and it had some real gems in it.  M's post on the meaning of HIP on the first page before he got into the inevitable pissing match resulting from people disagreeing with him is an obvious one.  Another is Elgarian's enthusiasm upon discovering the Immerseel set and discovering that he can, in fact, enjoy Beethoven's work.

Among the gems is this quote that apparently gave Karl a good, hearty laugh, and with good reason!

And another one from Rod that resulted from DavidRoss asking him if he reviews as Santa Fe Listener on Amazon (In Rod's defense, SFL hates everything that is even remotely related to HIP so I suspect that's not the case ):

I also appreciated this beautiful testament to the joy and importance of HIP written by DavidRoss.  The third paragraph is particularly well done:

And then there was this gem from Antoine (though I think it rightly should have been delivered by Gurn ):
I'm sorry, but I really like this guy.   


Oh, and the thread was even useful from a musical perspective and managed to save me money at the same time.  Well, sort of.  I was originally going to get Goodman's set to supplement Immerseel and Abbado's Rome set but decided to hold off on that one for now and get Hogwood's set instead, which cuts roughly a third off the price.  On the other hand, this thread made me hell-bent on trying Jarvi's Eroica which pretty much balances out the price, but I doubt I'll mind.

Also, I'll give in and throw my hat in the ring in the 'what constitutes HIP and what do we call related stuff' argument that has ruled the last five pages of this thread.  I refer to modern instrument, chamber orchestra performances that use interpretations similar to HIP period performances as....HIP influenced.  And yes, I would personally happily discuss such performances in this thread alongside period instrument recordings as long as we don't end up banging our collective heads against the wall again over whether Toscanini should be discussed here because he employed quick tempos.

Yes, lots to like here and lots to chortle over. I miss Corkin's self-aggrandising, although that's probably because;

a) I've known him longer than I've known any of you here and
b) He's the one who turned me on to PI performance 12 years ago.

I'm glad that his taste in performance is the only thing that took with me.... 

I think that your takeaway of getting Hogwood is an excellent choice. No one cycle has all the best interpretations, but Hogwood's is all around very fine.

I could take just my 3 little boxes, with Hogwood, Immerseel and Gardiner, add in my Savall Eroica, and a 9th or two for good measure like Krivine and Herreweghe, and not need any more Beethoven symphonies ever again. But hey, that's just me.    0:)

[Brian]

On the other hand, this thread made me hell-bent on trying Jarvi's Eroica which pretty much balances out the price, but I doubt I'll mind.

Jarvi's Eroica is just like Dausgaard's or Chailly's, but with the energy level turned one notch down. But then, I've been making that claim on every page of this thread. 

[Geo Dude]

Yes, lots to like here and lots to chortle over. I miss Corkin's self-aggrandising, although that's probably because;

a) I've known him longer than I've known any of you here and
b) He's the one who turned me on to PI performance 12 years ago.

I'm glad that his taste in performance is the only thing that took with me.... 

Now to be fair I didn't mind him too much until he started going on about how the Immerseel set was terrible.  Anyone who does that loses my allegiance.   That said, I can understand how he got compared to Santa Fe Listener; that fellow is also...very confident in his opinions, shall we say?

Rod, like M, had some interesting and intelligent contributions to make but often let his mouth bypass his brain (Something I, of course, know nothing about... ) so I can see how he ended up disappearing.  Personally, I liked many of the contributions M had to make, but it feels nice to be able to freely discuss music and recordings without being accused of being a philistine because I happen to inadvertently trip one of an irritable members' switches.

I think that your takeaway of getting Hogwood is an excellent choice. No one cycle has all the best interpretations, but Hogwood's is all around very fine.

I could take just my 3 little boxes, with Hogwood, Immerseel and Gardiner, add in my Savall Eroica, and a 9th or two for good measure like Krivine and Herreweghe, and not need any more Beethoven symphonies ever again. But hey, that's just me.    0:)

Sounds reasonable to me; not everyone needs twenty boxes of Beethoven symphonies.   On the other hand that Savall Eroica is quite hard to find now, running about $35 for a copy at minimum on Amazon.

Jarvi's Eroica is just like Dausgaard's or Chailly's, but with the energy level turned one notch down. But then, I've been making that claim on every page of this thread. 

Well, I may just have to learn the hard way.  If it makes you feel any better I will be happy to report back that you're correct if I find myself feeling that way.