Unpopular Opinions

[Karl Henning]

The creation, and reception, of every art is culturally conditioned. Your own music is no exception. Had you been born in another time or / and place, it would have certainly sounded differently.

To divorce art from the cultural environment which made it possible, and to brand the latter as something extraneous to that art is an impossible operation for me.

I put it to you that it is not at all impossible, but that it is simply the case.  None of us lives in the cultural environment that JS Bach lived in.  This fact does not seriously impede our appreciation of his superb musical excellence.

That's another distinction I can't make --- at least not for the kind of music which is my daily bread and cup of tea.

Okay, then. Given my thesis above (Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners) what counter-examples can you furnish from your musical larder? 

[Karl Henning]

None of us lives in the cultural environment that Liszt lived in, either.

[Karl Henning]

A great composer is not ipso facto exempt from saying unrealistic, provocative or stupid things. Stravinsky just talked and wrote more than others. 

Complete agreement.  One of the wryer aspects here is, that Игорь Фëдорович prided himself on being "the Anti-Wagner," but he was a great artist who courted celebrity, which is a lifestyle very much of that epoch.

[Madiel]

Karl, sometimes your affectation for writing in Cyrillic gets the better of you.

[Karl Henning]

Noted, thanks.

[Florestan]

I put it to you that it is not at all impossible, but that it is simply the case.  None of us lives in the cultural environment that JS Bach lived in.  This fact does not seriously impede our appreciation of his superb musical excellence.

It does impede our full appreciation of his religious music, though, which was meant to be heard exclusively in church and to stir piety and devotion in the already believing listeners.

Okay, then. Given my thesis above (Barring the attachment of non-musical information, it is impossible, completely impossible, to write music which will mean the same thing, emotionally, to all listeners) what counter-examples can you furnish from your musical larder? 

Otomh, Schubert's String Quintet and Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. AFAIK, GMG posts and discussions included, the emotional reactions to these pieces of "absolute music" are fairly uniform.

None of us lives in the cultural environment that Liszt lived in, either.

Precisely. That's why the music of Liszt does not impress us anymore as extremely revolutionary to the point of being shocking and unintelligible, and also why for us the War of the Romantics is just a piece of cultural history which does not force us to take sides.

The past is a foreign country. We will never be able to hear the music of the past with the same ears as people back then did, and we might even appreciate some of it for reasons that to those people would seem strange.

That being said, my literary taste and general personality make me feel much closer to, say, Schubert's cultural environment than to my own. 

[Florestan]

Karl, sometimes your affectation for writing in Cyrillic gets the better of you.

Honestly, it has began to get on my nerves.   

I doubt that in Russian books this or that composer is referred to only by his name and patronimic.

[Karl Henning]

Otomh, Schubert's String Quintet and Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. AFAIK, GMG posts and discussions included, the emotional reactions to these pieces of "absolute music" are fairly uniform.

Well, that is an interesting question.  The Sarge and I have found ourselves interpreting (e.g.) the Brahms Fourth in different emotional tones.  In fact, I should be very surprised if the emotional "reading" of the Tchaikovsky Fifth is uniform among us!  For only one consideration, we know that the same piece can "express" different emotions when performed at different tempi.  But if we can test the question, I am sure the results would be illuming.

[Florestan]

I should be very surprised if the emotional "reading" of the Tchaikovsky Fifth is uniform among us!

It is commonly regarded (ie, I have yet to read / hear a different view or interpretation) as telling a tale of struggle against, and final triumph over, an ominous and fiendish fate.

  For only one consideration, we know that the same piece can "express" different emotions when performed at different tempi.

I'll stick to the tempo indicated by the composer, though, he surely must have a reason for not choosing any other.

[Madiel]

Honestly, it has began to get on my nerves.   

I doubt that in Russian books this or that composer is referred to only by his name and patronimic.

I've honestly no idea what they do in books that are written in Russian, though it's worth noting that Russians started having genuine surnames quite some time ago (as is true of most European cultures, not those pesky Icelanders though). A bit of Wikipedia research does indicate that name + patronymic is one of the formal forms of address.

But I'm fairly confident that when Russian composers moved to other parts of the world that used the Latin alphabet, they figured out a way to write their name in that form and made use of it in that form.

[Brian]

It is commonly regarded (ie, I have yet to read / hear a different view or interpretation) as telling a tale of struggle against, and final triumph over, an ominous and fiendish fate.

I don't think that this is an emotional reaction, however. It was specified by Tchaikovsky in a note or letter of some kind, was it not? And, at least for myself, I do not think of "struggle against fate" as an emotion that I feel in reaction to something. In fact, I don't feel it in regard to this symphony; I've been converted to the school which sees it as more of a symphonic extension of his ballet writing.

[ritter]

.... Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. AFAIK, GMG posts and discussions included, the emotional reactions to these pieces of "absolute music" are fairly uniform...

I would never have thought that the emotional reaction that piece generates in me (actually, it's more a physical one--nausea) was common here on GMG...

More seriously, that is a paradigmatic compsotion in that it represents what some of us do not want (or expect) from music...some "message" being forced on us in a sentimental way....

[Brian]

It would be an interesting challenge to try and write something that generates a universal dislike.

This has been attempted! Unfortunately...I kind of like it.

The Most Unwanted Song came about when they surveyed listeners and identified things people hate (needlessly long songs, children singing holiday carols, advertisement jingles, bagpipes, jarring transitions, etc.) and then put them all in one song.

https://www.youtube.com/v/-gPuH1yeZ08

[Karl Henning]

It is commonly regarded (ie, I have yet to read / hear a different view or interpretation) as telling a tale of struggle against, and final triumph over, an ominous and fiendish fate.

Ah, so you mean that this does not qualify to test my thesis, as there are non-musical informants?

I don't think that this is an emotional reaction, however. It was specified by Tchaikovsky in a note or letter of some kind, was it not? And, at least for myself, I do not think of "struggle against fate" as an emotion that I feel in reaction to something. In fact, I don't feel it in regard to this symphony; I've been converted to the school which sees it as more of a symphonic extension of his ballet writing.

I keep forgetting if this was the e minor or the f minor symphony;  yes, there is a latter to (I believe) Mme. von Meck.  And I remember reading a discussion which actually uses the circumstance of this letter to argue against elevating the program to a compositional determinant.

[Madiel]

This has been attempted! Unfortunately...I kind of like it.

The Most Unwanted Song came about when they surveyed listeners and identified things people hate (needlessly long songs, children singing holiday carols, advertisement jingles, bagpipes, jarring transitions, etc.) and then put them all in one song.

https://www.youtube.com/v/-gPuH1yeZ08

I'm prepared to say the first 2 minutes aren't that bad. But as I should be heading for bed, I think the rest will have to go unlistened.

[Florestan]

I don't think that this is an emotional reaction, however. It was specified by Tchaikovsky in a note or letter of some kind, was it not?

At the time I first heard it I had no idea whatsoever about any letter Tchaikovsky might have written, nor how it was interpreted by others --- it was simply that my reaction to, and perception of, the "story" told by the music coincided perfectly with what I have read / found later.

Yet, I am not saying that a fairly uniform reaction is always the acse. Do you remember how heavily we diverged in our interpretation of (if I'm not mistaken) Sibelius' Sixth? 

More seriously, that is a paradigmatic compsotion in that it represents what some of us do not want (or expect) from music...some "message" being forced on us in a sentimental way....

De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est.  But then again, how come you like Wagner?

[Karl Henning]

I'll stick to the tempo indicated by the composer, though, he surely must have a reason for not choosing any other.

This works only for those works with specific metronome markings, I suppose.  Or, only for those pieces which really must be performed at that marking, and at no other.  I do not believe that if the Bach C Major Prelude from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier is always played at the same tempo, it will express the same emotion to all listeners.

[Florestan]

Ah, so you mean that this does not qualify to test my thesis, as there are non-musical informants?

From Wikipedia:

Unlike its two predecessors, the 5th Symphony has no clear program. On 15 April 1888, about a month before he began composing the symphony, the composer sketched a scenario for its first movement in his notebook, containing "... a complete resignation before fate, which is the same as the inscrutable predestination of fate ..." It is however uncertain how much of this program has been realised in the composition.[2]

I was completely unaware of Tchaikovsky's notebook entry at the time I first heard it, yet struggle against fate was exactly how I perceived it. Call it coincidence, if you wish, I don't mind.

[Florestan]

I do not believe that if the Bach C Major Prelude from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier is always played at the same tempo, it will express the same emotion to all listeners.

Nor do I. You just asked for counter examples to your thesis, I gave you two. I'm not saying that it is always the case that the same piece ellicit fairly uniform reactions and interpretations, I'm just saying that it happens.

[Karl Henning]

From Wikipedia:

Unlike its two predecessors, the 5th Symphony has no clear program. On 15 April 1888, about a month before he began composing the symphony, the composer sketched a scenario for its first movement in his notebook, containing "... a complete resignation before fate, which is the same as the inscrutable predestination of fate ..." It is however uncertain how much of this program has been realised in the composition.[2]

I was completely unaware of Tchaikovsky's notebook entry at the time I first heard it, yet struggle against fate was exactly how I perceived it. Call it coincidence, if you wish, I don't mind.

I doubt it is coincidence, but I also question that this is how every 'blind listener' will receive it.

Nor do I. You just asked for counter examples to your thesis, I gave you two. I'm not saying that it is always the case that the same piece ellicit fairly uniform reactions and interpretations, I'm just saying that it happens.

Of course, dear fellow.  And it would be only one data point, not necessarily the most important question, but I wonder (that is, I do not have my scores to hand) whether Tchaikovsky inscribed metronome markings.