Unpopular Opinions

[Ken B]

I'm puzzled, too. He's usually calm and relaxed. 

Yes I would agree he's really the second calmest guy here!

[Uhor]

There is rarely enough silence.

[nodogen]

.

[Florestan]

Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

Why is it controversial? He's right.

[Karl Henning]

I am content to be a mere musician, I suppose. Liberace was, and André Rieu is, no mere musician, to be certain.

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[kishnevi]

Why is it controversial? He's right.

One might see in that quote a bit of self promotion from the man who invented the genre of the tone poem.

[Ken B]

Why is it controversial? He's right.

There was once a raging debate about pure music vs program music. If the "tone poet" is a composer of tone poems rather than say the Eroica symphony, then it's a bit controversial (and wrong!).

[Madiel]

Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

Yeah. Turns out Liszt's soul was bombastic and a bit repetitive.

[Florestan]

If the "tone poet" is a composer of tone poems rather than say the Eroica symphony, then it's a bit controversial (and wrong!).

The same man who wrote the Eroica wrote also the Pastoral. And Coriolan. And Egmont. And King Stephan. And Wellington's Victory. Just saying.

And I wonder: is there any composer before, or contemporary with, Liszt who did not write at least one programmatic or descriptive orchestral / instrumental work? Otoh I can think of none.

[Parsifal]

Here is one from Franz Liszt which will probably get on the nerves of many...

The difference between the tone-poet and the mere musician is that the former reproduces his impressions and the adventures of his soul in order to communicate them, while the latter manipulates, groups, and connects the tones according to certain established rules and, thus playfully conquering difficulties, attains at best to novel, bold, unusual, and complex combinations.

When I read things like this I remind myself that composers of music are skillful at that, composing music. The words they write and the things they tell themselves to motivate the composing of music are often best ignored.

[Jo498]

Mozart? Bruckner? Brahms?
It all depends on what one means with "programmatic"/"descriptive". On the one end one has Smetanas's Vltava or some of Richard Strauss where fairly concrete episodes can be connected with the musical episodes. On the other one has something like a lot of Schumann's piano music which is full of poetic allusions but they are all so vague that it would usually be a distortion to call the music descriptive.

[Florestan]

Mozart?

Rondo alla turca.

One of his piano sonatas (can't remember which otomh) is supposed to picture mademoiselle Rose Cannabich, according to Mozart's own testimony.

Bruckner?

Symphony No. 4 "Romantic"

Brahms?

Ballad op. 10 / 1 "Edward", Tragic Overture, Academic Overture.

[Ken B]

Symphony No. 4 "Romantic"

Bruckner named that himself did he?

[Florestan]

Bruckner named that himself did he?

According to Wikpedia, he did. Furthermore:

There exists much evidence that Bruckner had a program in mind for the Fourth Symphony. In a letter to conductor Hermann Levi of 8 December 1884, Bruckner wrote: "In the first movement after a full night's sleep the day is announced by the horn, 2nd movement song, 3rd movement hunting trio, musical entertainment of the hunters in the wood.[2] There is a similar passage in a letter from the composer to Paul Heyse of 22 December 1890: "In the first movement of the "Romantic" Fourth Symphony the intention is to depict the horn that proclaims the day from the town hall! Then life goes on; in the Gesangsperiode [the second subject] the theme is the song of the great tit [a bird] Zizipe. 2nd movement: song, prayer, serenade. 3rd: hunt and in the Trio how a barrel-organ plays during the midday meal in the forest.[2]

The autograph of the Scherzo and Finale of the 1878 version of the symphony contains markings such as Jagdthema (hunting theme), Tanzweise während der Mahlzeit auf der Jagd (dance tune during the lunch break while hunting) and Volksfest (people's festival).[2] In addition to these clues that come directly from Bruckner, the musicologist Theodor Helm communicated a more detailed account reported via the composer's associate Bernhard Deubler: "Mediaeval city -- Daybreak -- Morning calls sound from the city towers -- the gates open -- On proud horses the knights burst out into the open, the magic of nature envelops them -- forest murmurs -- bird song -- and so the Romantic picture develops further...[2]

There does not seem to be any clear hint of a program for the third version (1880) of the symphony's finale.[2]

[Madiel]

If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.

[Ken B]

If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.

You are forgetting the Goosestep in A- K 124

[Karl Henning]

I wish this thread had not become a referendum on Liszt.

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[kishnevi]

If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.

Baroque and Classical era composers wrote programmatic music within the musical language and structure of the times.  Vivaldi's Four Periods Of The Year is an obvious example, but there were numerous others.  Telemann wrote a number of suites which purported to musically describe a specific topic. Biber's Rosary Sonatas are another example.

Liszt's innovation was to write such pieces using the musical language of his era and a sort of freeform structure for orchestra. I am not sure if he can be said to have done the same for piano, but he certainly gave the idea impetus there. He invented the tone poem...although of course even there Berlioz preceded him, although Berlioz was more prone to confine himself to the forms of symphony and cantata.

When did people start writing concert overtures? Before or after Lizst?

I wish this thread had not become a referendum on Liszt.

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It's more a referendum on Liszt's ego .

[PerfectWagnerite]

When did people start writing concert overtures? Before or after Lizst?
It's more a referendum on Liszt's ego .

All genius's have big egos.

Concert overture? Definitely before, not counting overtures to incidental music we have Mendelssohn's Fingal's Cave and Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage which came some 25 yrs or so before Les Preludes.

Or LvB's Coriolan Overture of 1804.