Unpopular Opinions

[kishnevi]

All genius's have big egos.

Concert overture? Definitely before, not counting overtures to incidental music we have Mendelssohn's Fingal's Cave and Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage which came some 25 yrs or so before Les Preludes.

Facepalm. You would think I would have remembered Felix.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Facepalm. You would think I would have remembered Felix.

Can you believe it? For someone who goes on the record as saying one needs to wash one's hands after touching a Berlioz score wrote NOT one, not TWO, but 3 programmatic symphonies.

[kishnevi]

Can you believe it? For someone who goes on the record as saying one needs to wash one's hands after touching a Berlioz score wrote NOT one, not TWO, but 3 programmatic symphonies.

I'm not sure I would call those three symphonies programmatic in the way that Symphonie Fantastique and Harold en Italie are--or Fingal's Cave.

BTW, another forerunner would be Weber:, Invitation to the Dance.

[PerfectWagnerite]

BTW, another forerunner would be Weber:, Invitation to the Dance.

Not sure whether that counts as a concert overture though, concert waltz yes...

[Uhor]

A tuning fork doesn't sound harsh to the ear. Somebody has to tell this to Edward Witten. Nor do microtone deviations sound ugly in themselves, that is a pernicious way to explain how a guitar is tuned or some properties of waves.

[amw]

Also from Beethoven: Die Weihe des Hauses and Namensfeier. Coriolan is sometimes considered not to count since it was technically written for a play, although there is no other music to follow it—if it does count as a concert overture it would probably be the earliest, if not I think it's Namensfeier.

[kishnevi]

Also from Beethoven: Die Weihe des Hauses and Namensfeier. Coriolan is sometimes considered not to count since it was technically written for a play, although there is no other music to follow it—if it does count as a concert overture it would probably be the earliest, if not I think it's Namensfeier.

I thought of those, but I don't think they are programmatic, in the sense of meaning to convey a particular situation in musical terms.  But, as already mentioned by someone upthread,  the Pastorale Symphony is certainly programmatic.  (They are certainly concert overtures.)

Speaking of LvB, he did write at least one programmatic work for piano: the Les Adieux sonata. Who came up with the common names for the "Hunt" and "Tempest" sonatas?  Those are more evocative than programmatic.

The baroque produced plenty of programmatic music for keyboard: JSB's Caprice for a departed brother is only one example.

The more we talk this through, the less innovative Liszt seems to be...

ETA
I think Hummel produced several works that could be called programmatic, but I would have to look to be sure. Perhaps also Spohr and others of that generation.

[Madiel]

Baroque and Classical era composers wrote programmatic music within the musical language and structure of the times.  Vivaldi's Four Periods Of The Year is an obvious example, but there were numerous others.  Telemann wrote a number of suites which purported to musically describe a specific topic. Biber's Rosary Sonatas are another example.

All far better examples than the one that was offered.

[Madiel]

Somehow I completely missed half a page of conversation here but Ken is correct, that is what I was saying.

If I'm going to make a conscious effort to at least try to experience this music, of course I'm going to buy some CDs and listen to it on my stereo, not rely on Youtube or a streaming site. I still have those CDs too (well not in my apartment, Uni and all)

In which case, the idea that you have Mozart CDs "despite" your disdain for him simply means you didn't get rid of CDs after working out you didn't like them.

I don't think "despite" was a great choice of word for the cause-and-effect in that case.

[71 dB]

If I'm going to make a conscious effort to at least try to experience this music, of course I'm going to buy some CDs and listen to it on my stereo, not rely on Youtube or a streaming site. I still have those CDs too (well not in my apartment, Uni and all)

If you are referring to sound quality, why would you think the step in sound quality from Youtube or a streaming site is going to make you like music you don't like at lower sound quality? If I don't like the music of Verdi on Youtube, I know I won't likes his music from a multichannel SACD either. The increase in sound quality does not remove the structural problems I have with Verdi. Why would it solve your problems with Mozart?

[Florestan]

If you suggested to Liszt that calling a rondo "alla turca" was enough to be the kind of descriptive music he had in mind, he would have spit out his drink in shock.

Seriously, you want to argue that baroque composers were being programmatic when they wrote different kinds of dances knowing where they come from? An allemande is German. Not a **** depiction of Germany.

In which case, the idea that you have Mozart CDs "despite" your disdain for him simply means you didn't get rid of CDs after working out you didn't like them.

I don't think "despite" was a great choice of word for the cause-and-effect in that case.

I'm greatly relieved: you're back to your usual self. For a moment I feared you did really become calm and relaxed. 

[Madiel]

I'm greatly relieved: you're back to your usual self. For a moment I feared you did really become calm and relaxed. 

Going on holiday in one week. The preparations are stressing me out.

[Florestan]

Going on holiday in one week. The preparations are stressing me out.

Enjoy your holiday! Where do you go?

[Madiel]

Enjoy your holiday! Where do you go?

Denmark and northern Germany.

[Florestan]

Denmark and northern Germany.

A Holmboe pilgrimage perhaps? 

[Madiel]

A Holmboe pilgrimage perhaps? 

Only in the very loose sense that I may (a) spend half a day in his home town**, and (b) be on the lookout for one particular album in any CD shops I happen across.

**Apparently the number 1 tourist attraction is the former prison.

[Florestan]

Only in the very loose sense that I may (a) spend half a day in his home town**, and (b) be on the lookout for one particular album in any CD shops I happen across.

**Apparently the number 1 tourist attraction is the former prison.

Whatever you do, I wish you a great time there! Post some pictures when you're back!

[Karl Henning]

All genius's have big egos.

I don't believe that for a minute.

[Karl Henning]

It's more a referendum on Liszt's ego .

Better.

Let me say instead, then, that I wish this thread had not become a referendum on Liszt's ego, a discussion which can probably only depress general interest in the music itself.

[prémont]

**Apparently the number 1 tourist attraction is the former prison.

Yes, a captivating view.

Which other places i Denmark are you going to visit?