Unpopular Opinions

[Ken B]

No... I saw it now... but even with that... his supposed help to black music is based on a caricature of jazz, as Mahlerian and I have pointed.

Well I think reasonable people can differ on whether pop commercial jazz is "based on" diatonic functional harmony or whether "based on" is too strong and it just plays an important roles in it (the link I gave is from a jazz musician btw), but I do not think you can sensibly insist that such a disagreement proves anyone is a white supremacist.

[bwv 1080]

I know jazz has its own ideas about how harmonies and progressions work, but the progressions in jazz are not those of the common practice, nor are those of the common practice the same as jazz harmony.  Functional harmony in the sense that was originally under discussion, as a European invention, is not the foundation of jazz music or popular music today.

Much of jazz practice is closer to things analyzed in classical terms as non-functional harmony, like Debussy or early Stravinsky, though, as aleazk notes, this doesn't imply any kind of influence.

That is simply incorrect. Traditional jazz progressions (i.e. The ubitiquitous ii-V-I) are exactly the same as common practice, just that chord extensions color the harmony.    Jazz harmony throught the bebop period is strictly functional, only later with modal jazz did it start to resemble Debussy.

[Mahlerian]

That is simply incorrect. Traditional jazz progressions (i.e. The ubitiquitous ii-V-I) are exactly the same as common practice, just that chord extensions color the harmony.    Jazz harmony throught the bebop period is strictly functional, only later with modal jazz did it start to resemble Debussy.

Traditional harmonic progressions in classical music are rooted in a specific treatment of voice leading and dissonance.  To add sevenths (major or minor, both are traditionally dissonant) to every chord and treat them as block sonorities is to break with the most basic principles of the common practice period, and not just bebop, but earlier forms of jazz treated chordal dissonances with far more freedom than any common practice composer would or could have.

[aleazk]

Well I think reasonable people can differ on whether pop commercial jazz is "based on" diatonic functional harmony or whether "based on" is too strong and it just plays an important roles in it (the link I gave is from a jazz musician btw), but I do not think you can sensibly insist that such a disagreement proves anyone is a white supremacist.

Yes, I agree. The accusations about that were based on Florestan's out of context quote. To which, I have to say, in a forum like this we assume some degree of intellectual honesty... to quote something out of context is not congruent with that.

But, anyway, I think it was a bad example. To refute the black american supremacists one only has to say, doh, you are part of western america dude, not a pygmy singer...

[aleazk]

If early jazz was just that same "old Brahms stuff" then I wonder what, composers like Ravel et al., could have found interesting about it 

[bwv 1080]

Traditional harmonic progressions in classical music are rooted in a specific treatment of voice leading and dissonance.  To add sevenths (major or minor, both are traditionally dissonant) to every chord and treat them as block sonorities is to break with the most basic principles of the common practice period, and not just bebop, but earlier forms of jazz treated chordal dissonances with far more freedom than any common practice composer would or could have.

Again either you don't understand jazz harmony or have your own idiosyncratic definition of functional harmony.  Functional harmony means just that- chords built in thirds based on notes within a key have specific tonal functions.  These functions are identical in jazz though the bebop era and in CP classical music.  What extensions or non harmonic tones are added to chords does not alter the function either in jazz or 19th century classical music.  A diatonic ii, ii7 or ii11 chord all have the same subdominant function.  Brahms and Schumann used more 7th and 9th chords and chromatic substitutions than Haydn but the music is still functional harmony. The same holds for bebop relative to Brahms

[bwv 1080]

If early jazz was just that same "old Brahms stuff" then I wonder what, composers like Ravel et al., could have found interesting about it

There is more to music than harmony

And it's not 'the same old Brahms stuff' (not sure where that came from). the innovations of jazz harmony through the bebop era were innovations in functional harmony.

[aleazk]

There is more to music than harmony

But Ravel liked the harmony, the strange tensions, the harmonic shape of the melodies, etc.

I think Mahlerian just has a stricter definition of functional harmony than you and that, in my opinion, is a better description of what classical composers were doing. In a discussion like this one, about subtle harmonic differences in different styles, and precisely their merits and innovations, it's certainly more useful a definition like the one by Mahlerian. In other contexts we may relax it a bit, but certainly not in this particular discussion.

[aleazk]

There is more to music than harmony

And it's not 'the same old Brahms stuff' (not sure where that came from). the innovations of jazz harmony through the bebop era were innovations in functional harmony.

It's a quote by Elliott Carter which I found pertinent.

Anyway, it seems this discussion revolves about the following: at which point the tensions introduced by the colorations break the functionality of chords.

[bwv 1080]

It's a quote by Elliott Carter which I found pertinent.

Anyway, it seems this discussion revolves about the following: at which point the tensions introduced by the colorations break the functionality of chords.

But jazz players (when playing standards and bebop) think and improvise based on chord function.  Functional harmony is the foundation of how Jazz improv and harmony is taught.  To argue against this one must claim to somehow have a special knowledge that beyond x level of chord extensions functional harmony ceases to exist counter to the beliefs of most of the people actually playing the music. 

[aleazk]

But jazz players (when playing standards and bebop) think and improvise based on chord function.  Functional harmony is the foundation of how Jazz improv and harmony is taught.  To argue against this one must claim to somehow have a special knowledge that beyond x level of chord extensions functional harmony ceases to exist counter to the beliefs of most of the people actually playing the music.

It's not about what they perceive, it's about how it compares to traditional harmony.

So, I went to my piano and played Brahms' famous intermezzo in A major, which is very rich in chord extensions. But, when they resolve, I noticed that they ALWAYS resolve to an unaltered major or minor triad...NEVER to a seventh chord. And, indeed, I just tried to resolve them to extended chords and sounded quite out of place in the general context of the piece.

Not to mention that Brahms' counterpoint there is delightfully designed to smoothly resolve the polyphonic texture into those common triads... so, this shows that he found that as quite fundamental, unlike early jazzists.

[bwv 1080]

It's not about what they perceive, it's about how it compares to traditional harmony.

So, I went to my piano and played Brahms' famous intermezzo in A major, which is very rich in chord extensions. But, when they resolve, I noticed that they ALWAYS resolve to an unaltered major or minor triad...NEVER to a seventh chord. And, indeed, I just tried to resolve them to extended chords and sounded quite out of place in the general context of the piece.

Not to mention that Brahms' counterpoint there is delightfully designed to smoothly resolve the polyphonic texture into those common triads... so, this shows that he found that as quite fundamental, unlike early jazzists.

Sure and Brahms' chords would sound out of place in Haydn.  Are you arguing that chord functions cease to exist if you place a 7th or 9th on the final tonic chord in a cadence?

[aleazk]

Sure and Brahms' chords would sound out of place in Haydn.  Are you arguing that chord functions cease to exist if you place a 7th or 9th on the final tonic chord in a cadence?

To Brahms? evidently! To the early jazz guys? Maybe yes, maybe not... "but hey, let's just do it because sounds fun!"

To modern jazzists and ears? Certainly not... but that's because decades of hearing those chords instead of pure triad resolutions...

Gosh! When I was a newbie to 20th century music but quite familiar with the core classical repertoire, I used to find Ravel extremely dissonant... now? I use him to calm my ears after an hour of electronic noise music (not that I find this music unpleasent, but you get the vibe).

Look, I quite get your point...and, from the point of view of modern jazz theory, you are right... I just think you are being a bit unfair to the actual history of all this... these theories are not scientific theories... they are developed, changed and reinterpreted as music, aesthetic values and aesthetic perceptions change in time.

[Florestan]

Yes, I agree. The accusations about that were based on Florestan's out of context quote. To which, I have to say, in a forum like this we assume some degree of intellectual honesty... to quote something out of context is not congruent with that.

A quote is by definition taken out of context.

[amw]

As unpopular an opinion these days as unashamed white supremacy. Oh, wait...

To be fair, this isn't unashamed white supremacy, it's just a very loud dog whistle to attract white supremacists.

Also: the only forms of "black popular music" (lol) that was based on functional harmony were swing and its successor bop, basing improvisation on I-V-IV patterns and the 8 and 12 bar blues and so on, and these were created largely to appeal to white as well as black audiences and remove the stigma of jazz as being "n****r music". (Didn't help; white supremacists just rebranded it "n****r-jew music")

With virtually everything else, functional diatonic harmony is not the bedrock of the style but an optional extra. Most modern pop songs I've heard eschew it and simply alternate between various diatonic chords (e.g. C, G, Am, F, etc) used nonfunctionally with the song capable of ending on any of them. Genres like rock and hip-hop often avoid triads altogether. The bedrock of these styles is, and always has been, beat and melody; and in a pinch, melody can slide.

Also, white people did not invent the common triads, nor do they have a monopoly on them. A song doesn't "owe" anything to white culture just because it has a C major chord in it. Africans use that chord too. Maybe get out of your parents' basement and go outside once in awhile Jimothy.

[Jo498]

I think that the whole "cultural appropriation" thing is foolish. (Obviously the culture of origin is not expropriated by the appropriation. When the Vikings switched from runes to the latin alphabet the people using the latin alphabet did not lose the use of that alphabet because now the Norse used it as well.) It is done all the time, mostly mutually beneficial and almost always an estimation of the part of culture that was "appropriated". I mean, all the "traditional" Jazz instruments are of European origin, not from Africa or the Southern US. Should the Belgians sue for cultural appropriation because Charlie Parker played Saxophone?

I also think that it is an abuse of the term "white supremacy" if someone points out the de facto world domination of Western ("white") culture.
(Of course many origins of "Western" culture stem from the Levante or generally the Mediterranean and those guys were not milky white like anglosaxons.)
The latter is just a fact whereas "white supremacy" is supposed to mean that someone in a diverse culture should have special privileges simply by being white or even worse "master race" stuff.

[Uhor]

Bolero is better without the jazz gestures, as in Boulez's recording.

[Ken B]

Yes, I agree. The accusations about that were based on Florestan's out of context quote. To which, I have to say, in a forum like this we assume some degree of intellectual honesty... to quote something out of context is not congruent with that.

I think this is a bit unfair, confusing "out of context" and "without context". Florestan quoted without context. Any quotation is inherently shorn of some of its context, although context can be provided by for example supplying a narrative, as I did. But Florestan did not take it anyway at all. He made no comment. It was Brian and Mahlerian who "took" it, imposing a reading on it.  They did that while knowing nothing of the context, and read it in a way inconsistent with what it meant in context. I think that a bad habit. But it is not "taking out of context" either. That phrase implies to me that you selected the quotation for use, with mendacious intent, and neither Brian nor Mahlerian did.

[Karl Henning]

Well I think reasonable people can differ on whether pop commercial jazz is "based on" diatonic functional harmony or whether "based on" is too strong and it just plays an important roles in it (the link I gave is from a jazz musician btw), but I do not think you can sensibly insist that such a disagreement proves anyone is a white supremacist.

Just a note that the blogger wrote all jazz.

[Ken B]

Online shopping is based on several important technologies and standards: transactional databases, reliable communication protocols like TCP/IP and HTML, encryption, object oriented programming, and machine virtualization.



At this point you might wonder why I imagine that this would be an unpopular opinion. But it is clear that many here think something can only be "based on" one thing. So it qualifies.