Recordings That You Are Considering

[Lilas Pastia]

Having recently bought the Decca 30something discs set of Wagner in Bayreuth for half a song, I'm bracing myself for the Verdi bicentennial in four years. I can't think of a better way to celebrate it than buying Decca's 30something discs set. I surmise that it will be centered around the contributions of conductors Serafin and solti, with no doubt a good helping of Tebaldi, Pavarotti and Sutherland characterizations. Let's see, that should at least include:

I Masniadieri (Sutherland)
I Lombardi (Pavarotti, Anderson, Levine)
Nabucco (Suliotis)
Macbeth (Suliotis)
Luisa Miller (Caballé, Pavarotti)
Simon Boccanegra (Agache, Te Kanawa, Solti)
Ernani (Pavarotti, Mitchell, Levine)
La Traviata (Lorengar-Aragall, Maazel)
Il Trovatore (Tebaldi-Del Monaco, Erede)
Rigoletto (Gueden, Protti, Erede)
Un Ballo in maschera (Tebaldi, Del Monaco, Solti)
La Forza del destino (Tebaldi, Del Monaco, Siepi, Molinari-Pradelli)
Don Carlos (Tebaldi, Bergonzi, Solti)
Aida (Tebaldi, Bergonzi, Karajan)
Requiem and Four Sacred Pieces (Price, Bjoerling, Reiner)
Otello (Del Monaco, Tebaldi, Serafin)
Falstaff (Evans, Merrill, Solti)

Considering that ventures such as these tend to concern recordings made a generation or two ago, this seems quite reasonable to me. I'm probably missing a couple of likely issues, but that gives a goodish idea. Vivement 2013 !!

[imperfection]

Barenboim's Bruckner I find very weird, I once heard his 8th and the final bars are accelerated and taken at a prestissimo tempo. As long as grandiosity is concerned, Celibidache eats him for breakfast, and as far as rhythmic vitality is concerned, Jochum/Karajan trumps him. So I really see no reason to listen to his Bruckner recordings since I have much, much more interesting cycles than that...

[jlaurson]

Barenboim's Bruckner I find very weird, I once heard his 8th and the final bars are accelerated and taken at a prestissimo tempo. As long as grandiosity is concerned, Celibidache eats him for breakfast, and as far as rhythmic vitality is concerned, Jochum/Karajan trumps him. So I really see no reason to listen to his Bruckner recordings since I have much, much more interesting cycles than that...

Barenboim's Bruckner is weird. A friend offered me the complete Berlin cycle for free - and I declined. His Berlin Fifth, especially, turned me off his Bruckner, hard. However (of course there's a qualifier), his Ninth and First from that cycle are very, very fine. The latter further sweetened by a splendid version of the rarely recorded Helgoland Cantata. Also very impressive, if not particularly Brucknerish, is his Fourth with the CSO on DG. Everything that's good with Solti (blare&impress, CSO in top form), but not without the complete insensitivity Solti brought to Bruckner. (Review)

[jlaurson]

Not to worry. His Bruckner is an acquired taste...or to the taste of those with no taste    In fact, I only recall one critic (on BBC3, reviewing Barenboim against Masur) who liked Barenboim's cycle.

Yeah... like that's competition.

The critical consensus was so lopsidedly against Daniel, I didn't even bother to listen when the symphonies were first released. The eventual low price, combined with hearing that BBC critic's against-the-grain opinion, finally made me sample it...and low, it was far, far better than I expected. My favorite Bruckner cycle? No. But then no one gets every symphony right and the good things outweigh the mediocre.

His Beethoven is more consistently great, I think. It is, for me, one of the best, certainly in the top five.

Sarge

You can't compare that Beethoven to the Bruckner. "Two very good recordings in Bruckner [9, 1, Helgoland] a good cycle don't make." 
Barenboim was a Wagnerian conductor. There are very, very few conductors who can do two, much less all three, of the 'great German Romantics' Bruckner, Mahler, and Wagner -- because they are so absolutely different from one another, despite superficial similarities.

Only in old age do SOME seem to find the ability to deal with all three equally. Especially Bruckner & Mahler are antipodes. But take Jochum and (to an extend) Boehm: Bruckner and Wagner, but not Mahler. Celibidache & Wand Bruckner, but not Mahler (and not exactly Wagner specialists, either). Solti: Wagner, but no Bruckner (and, in my opinion, no Mahler either). Karajan: Mahler only at the end of his life, but Bruckner and Wagner excellent. Bernstein: Mahler fantastic, Wagner questionable but with potential, Bruckner not happening, and even that was at the end of his life. Walter did some fine Bruckner -- but mostly late in his career. Nothing compared to his Mahler (for obvious reasons, perhaps, given his biography/forming friendship with Mahler). Barenboim did lots of Bruckner, but it was weird. But he's one of the best living Wagner conductors. Sawallisch did Wagner and Bruckner well, but Mahler? Kempe: Wagner - but neither Bruckner nor Mahler.

The only young conductor who got all three equally well that I am aware of is Giuseppe Sinopoli. Does this have something to do with the fact that he was one of the most intelligent conductors, ever?

Barenboim is intent on getting all three right, and after a wobbly start with Mahler (5t), he has improved greatly with the recording of the 7th. (Hearing his 9th live was rather a disappointment, but it wasn't bad per se.

[Bunny]

Wow. Wish I were in Minnesota... that sounds like a special collaboration. (And is, judging from the results.)

They do tour; I heard them in Carnegie Hall where I also had the benefit of excellent hall accoustics.  0:)

[Sergeant Rock]

As I said somewhere in another thread, you've been a reliable guide and a trusted critic in almost everything...except Bruckner    I recall much the same arguments years ago in the Gramophone forum.

Yeah... like that's competition.

Masur's cycle I can't stand so of course there's no competition for me.

You can't compare that Beethoven to the Bruckner. "Two very good recordings in Bruckner [9, 1, Helgoland] a good cycle don't make." 

I would agree with that statement if there really were only "two very good performances" in his Bruckner cycle--but I believe there are more. I find the percentage of hits to misses comparable to most complete cycles. The only symphonies I have trouble with are 3 and 4. Yeah, 5 is weird as hell but that's the very reason I love it. It's not just another run-through, coasting along on automatic pilot, delivering what we expect, but a radical rethinking; the music once again taking us by surprise. I recall my first hearing: skepticism turning into admiration, then delight with that outrageous coda.

I don't expect everyone to have that same experience...maybe few will. The way we hear music remains individual, and a mystery.

The only young conductor who got all three equally well that I am aware of is Giuseppe Sinopoli. Does this have something to do with the fact that he was one of the most intelligent conductors, ever?

I don't know. Ask the question in the IQ thread in the Diner. They might have an answer for you    But you realize, Jens, that many, many critics find Sinopoli's Mahler as weird as you find Barenboim's Bruckner. Sinopoli's Mahler rarely turns up on anyone's list of great Mahler performances. Me, I'm fascinated by everythig he did but I think the man was far "weirder" than Barenboim has ever been. If you want to start a raging battle around here, just mention his Elgar Second 

Yes, Barenboim is intent on getting all three right, and after a wobbly start with Mahler (5t), he has improved greatly with the recording of the 7th. (Hearing his 9th live was rather a disappointment, but it wasn't bad per se.

That's why I consider Barenboim one of the truly greats. I believe he's proven (or is on his way to proving) that he can serve all three composers well: as you point out, that's rare. I own his Mahler (what little he's committed to disc so far) and I heard part of his Mahler cycle in Berlin (5 and 7). I'm mightily impressed. His Wagner I love (his is my favorite "modern" Ring, and I consider his Parsifal one of the greats). His early Bruckner, in Chicago, wasn't to my taste then and so I ignored his Berlin Bruckner for many years, thinking it would be more of the same. Hearing the excerpts on the BBC was a revelation. His Bruckner is highly individual (yes, there is something weird about much of it) but that's one reason it appeals: I hear something different, a different way of experiencing the music, and that's refreshing.

Sarge

[karlhenning]

Most interesting, Sarge.

[Drasko]

Otello (Del Monaco, Tebaldi, Serafin)

That would be Erede or Karajan. Del Monaco with Serafin (senza Tebaldi) is live 1954 RAI broadcast on Myto (my favorite of the lot).

[jlaurson]

As I said somewhere in another thread, you've been a reliable guide and a trusted critic in almost everything...except Bruckner   

I would not mind if you reduced my argument only to: "Barenboim's Bruckner is strange and not to everyone's taste, whereas Barenboim's Beethoven is undeoubtedly excellent, even if one does not like the particular vein of the interpretations". We'd both agree and have found a common denominator that's not even that small. The rest is the "happy divergence" that makes the music business (and fora like these) possible in the first place. Also: I admit to bearing a grudge against Barenboim's Berlin 5th, because it denied me 'entry' into that symphony for so many years. 

At least it didn't cloud my judgment about his 9th and 1st, though.

Btw., now that I know you don't listen to me on Bruckner: The finest 3rd I've yet heard on record is Celi/EMI.

[Sergeant Rock]

I would not mind if you reduced my argument only to: "Barenboim's Bruckner is strange and not to everyone's taste, whereas Barenboim's Beethoven is undeoubtedly excellent, even if one does not like the particular vein of the interpretations".

I would not disagree with that. Are we friends again? 

Btw., now that I know you don't listen to me on Bruckner: The finest 3rd I've yet heard on record is Celi/EMI.

That's my favorite Third too. I saw him conduct the Third twice: in Stuttgart and Munich. The appearance of Celi's Third on CD was a major event in my life. Whenever the members of this forum make lists of favorite Bruckner performances (and we do that with some regularity), Celi's Third has been one of the few constants on my lists over the years.

Sarge

[jlaurson]

I would not disagree with that. Are we friends again? 

hugs and all! 

That's my favorite Third too. I saw him conduct the Third twice: in Stuttgart and Munich. The appearance of Celi's Third on CD was a major event in my life. Whenever the members of this forum make lists of favorite Bruckner performances (and we do that with some regularity), Celi's Third has been one of the few constants on my lists over the years.

Sarge

What could I possibly have written to turn you off my Bruckner-judgment, then? Just the Barenboim disagreement?

Here are my top choices (I have to write it REALLY quick before I start doubting myself, otherwise such a list becomes impossible):

1 Barenboim
2 Skrowac.
3 Celi
4 Boehm
5 Celi
6 Celi
7 Karajan
8 Wand Berlin
9 Wand Berlin

I can't believe we are that far apart. (Of course I have many more top choices, but that's not the point of this post, is it? Ahhh... so tempting to pontificate!  )

[Haffner]

After having today fallen crazy in reverence for Sibelius's 7th Symphony, I'm considering getting this other than the EMI/Beecham (have read it was recorded better, with more inter-instrumental clarity).

[karlhenning]

After having today fallen crazy in reverence for Sibelius's 7th Symphony, I'm considering getting this other than the EMI/Beecham (have read it was recorded better, with more inter-instrumental clarity).

I haven't heard Segerstam in any of the symphonies, but his recording of The Tempest Suites, The Oceanides and Night-Ride & Sunrise is outstanding, Andy.

[Dundonnell]

I don't want to intrude on the Barenboim/Bruckner discussion except to say that my other version of the 9th(apart from the Barenboim that is) is the Gunther Wand/Berlin PO

So....I seem to be getting the best of it?

[Haffner]

I haven't heard Segerstam in any of the symphonies, but his recording of The Tempest Suites, The Oceanides and Night-Ride & Sunrise is outstanding, Andy.

Heyy, there's some reccomendations! Thanks! I'd never heard of Segerstram before, now I'm very interested.

[Haffner]

I don't want to intrude on the Barenboim/Bruckner discussion except to say that my other version of the 9th(apart from the Barenboim that is) is the Gunther Wand/Berlin PO

So....I seem to be getting the best of it?

The Wand 9th is often the perfect balance between restraint and "balls". In my humble opinion, of course. I thought the Wand was right up there with the Karajan/BPO and '70's VPO. Still haven't checked out the Giulini yet though.

[jlaurson]

After having today fallen crazy in reverence for Sibelius's 7th Symphony, I'm considering getting this other than the EMI/Beecham (have read it was recorded better, with more inter-instrumental clarity).

I don't want to say "the best" --- but Segerstam's second Sibelius cycle (the one from which the recording you pictured comes) is my reference, despite so many other wonderful cycles. Partly that's because it's still a fairly recent addition to my Sibelius shelf (also holding in high esteem Vanska, Ashkenazy-1(!!), Maazel, Barbirollli* [cough-cough], parts of Gibson, Davis-1, HvK-DG et al.), but partly because the readings are so wonderfully sensuous & sinuous. [How's that for "adjectives"?  ] Nordic need not mean chill! (Apparently.)

Sibelius, Symphonies, VC, (Choral) Finlandia

* High esteem can take many forms, you know... some children you are proud of because they do well in school and become doctors... some of your children you love, even though they have a limp, or down-syndrome, or a hunchback - or all of the above. Barbirolli's more the latter kind of 'esteemed Sibelius cycle'. But you still have to love it, right?!?

Neat to see Gibson get a mention - he is possibly the most consistently underrated/ignored Sibelian. This may have been the case for Sanderling too, but not since the exposure of the Brilliant Classics reissue.

True... I was going to mention Sanderling... but then forgot. Just too much great Sibelius out there. Good that the Berlin Classics re-issue is about the same price as the Brilliant edition was... even though the latter's slim-box was more convenient. There's simply not a cycle I am aware of, that hasn't some redeeming features. Even Bernstein and Rattle.

[Haffner]

I don't want to say "the best" --- but Segerstam's second Sibelius cycle (the one from which the recording you pictured comes) is my reference, despite so many other wonderful cycles. Partly that's because it's still a fairly recent addition to my Sibelius shelf (also holding in high esteem Vanska, Ashkenazy-1(!!), Maazel, Barbirollli* [cough-cough], parts of Gibson, Davis-1, HvK-DG et al.), but partly because the readings are so wonderfully sensuous & sinuous. [How's that for "adjectives"?  ] Nordic need not mean chill! (Apparently.)

Sibelius, Symphonies, VC, (Choral) Finlandia

* High esteem can take many forms, you know... some children you are proud of because they do well in school and become doctors... some of your children you love, even though they have a limp, or down-syndrome, or a hunchback - or all of the above. Barbirolli's more the latter kind of 'esteemed Sibelius cycle'. But you still have to love it, right?!?

I'm sold, thank you so much! I didn't know there was a box set (opens another window for Amazon.com).

[Lethevich]

I don't want to say "the best" --- but Segerstam's second Sibelius cycle (the one from which the recording you pictured comes) is my reference, despite so many other wonderful cycles. Partly that's because it's still a fairly recent addition to my Sibelius shelf (also holding in high esteem Vanska, Ashkenazy-1(!!), Maazel, Barbirollli* [cough-cough], parts of Gibson, Davis-1, HvK-DG et al.), but partly because the readings are so wonderfully sensuous & sinuous. [How's that for "adjectives"?  ] Nordic need not mean chill! (Apparently.)

Neat to see Gibson get a mention - he is possibly the most consistently underrated/ignored Sibelian. This may have been the case for Sanderling too, but not since the exposure of the Brilliant Classics reissue.

[George]

The Wand 9th is often the perfect balance between restraint and "balls". In my humble opinion, of course. I thought the Wand was right up there with the Karajan/BPO and '70's VPO. Still haven't checked out the Giulini yet though.

I have been following Wand's RCA set in this thread on another board. I have compared Wand to every other conductor I have in Beethoven - Szell, Karajan, Barenboim, Toscanini and guess who has come out on top by a fair margin for the first two symphonies?

Wand! The great recorded sound, and yes, balance between balls and restraint (or perhaps muscle and beauty) in wonderful! This guy knows his Beethoven and how to get his orchestra to play it! It will be interesting to see how the other 7 stack up, but boy, he's doing damn good thus far.