An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)

[Karl Henning]

Most John Williams fans who are also fans of classical music have heard some sort of accusation levied against the film composer, of some degree of plagiarism.

Those of you who are fans:  Do you think the plagiarism possibly true, or entirely false?

Thank you in advance for participating.

[Karl Henning]

I agree with this. We must remember that Lucas used Holst's The Planet as temporary music during the post production and asked JW to write similar [...] music for the movie.

Hmm, that looks like the suggestion of some plagiarism, doesn't it?

[71 dB]

Those of you who are fans:  Do you think the plagiarism possibly true, or entirely false?

Thank you in advance for participating.

Movie music isn't supposed to be original (it can be of course). It is supposed to enhance the movie experience. Composers like John Williams don't deny the strong influences of classical composers. However, for example John Williams is a master of creating (memorable) tunes so there isn't much need for plagiarism but it may occur sometimes.

Movie music is usually structurally simple but not easy to produce because it must match the movie emotionally and "hide" among the other sounds (dialogue, effects, foley) of a movie soundtrack. 

[Leon]

While I agree that John Williams, among other film composers, probably "borrowed" orchestral effects and stylistic features from Holst and other composers from the classical tradition - I am not sure if it matters.

It is not as if what John Williams does is important or rises to the level of being in competition with those he is ripping off. 

Big deal: so Star Wars music sounds a lot like The Planets.  I think Holst's work and his reputation are immune from any damage a well-skilled workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

[Karl Henning]

Movie music isn't supposed to be original

A fascinating remark, which colors your entire part in the conversation, doth it not?  Thank you for conceding that Williams was not original, in a great number of places, in the Star Wars music.

While I agree that John Williams, among other film composers, probably "borrowed" orchestral effects and stylistic features from Holst and other composers from the classical tradition - I am not sure if it matters.

It is not as if what John Williams does is important or rises to the level of being in competition with those he is ripping off. 

Big deal: so Star Wars music sounds a lot like The Planets.  I think Holst's work and his reputation are immune from any damage a well-skilled workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

That is all fair enow.

[Karl Henning]

Movie music is usually structurally simple but not easy to produce because it must match the movie emotionally and "hide" among the other sounds (dialogue, effects, foley) of a movie soundtrack.

Sure; no one argues that writing good music for film has its challenges; nor do I believe that anyone is arguing that Williams is not a gifted writer for film.  As well as a fellow with good taste, when it comes to pilfering ; )

The fact that the task is a challenge, does not negate the artistic sham of the plagiarism.  Gosh, writing a symphony is hard, so of course I borrowed from music which has the emotional content which I need here, and here, and here . . . .

[kishnevi]

Hmm, that looks like the suggestion of some plagiarism, doesn't it?

The Warsaw Concerto was written because the producers of the movie in which it appeared couldn't  get the rights from Rachmaninov for one of his own concertos;  they turned around and instructed Addinsall (sp?) to compose, in effect, Rachmaninov's next piano concerto.

[Karl Henning]

The Warsaw Concerto was written because the producers of the movie in which it appeared couldn't  get the rights from Rachmaninov for one of his own concertos;  they turned around and instructed Addinsall (sp?) to compose, in effect, Rachmaninov's next piano concerto.

Thank you! I had my suspicions, there : )

[Todd]

Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal.

Seems about right.

While watching a movie scored by Williams, it's possible to divine the influence of, say, Prokofiev here, Mahler there, Dvorak somewhere else, as well as LvB or just about anything else.  I can't say for sure that it is outright plagiarism, but then he may be a lesser artist.

[The new erato]

from any damage a well-skilled, extemely rich,  workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

Relevant description added.

[chasmaniac]

Simply crediting the originals would end this controversy. What's so hard about that? Is it a money thing? Creative artists allude to and quote the work of others all the time, intending their audiences to see the connections. These are part of the sense a new work makes.

[71 dB]

I don't care how much John Williams steals from classical composers because that's irrelevant. What is relevant is how those cues are used to make the movie experience better.

I think Holst's work and his reputation are immune from any damage a well-skilled workmanlike midget like John Williams can inflict.

What damage? If I was Holst I'd be proud my art had so large influence on an iconic movie like Star Wars.

[Leon]

I don't care how much John Williams steals from classical composers because that's irrelevant. What is relevant is how those cues are used to make the movie experience better.

What damage? If I was Holst I'd be proud my art had so large influence on an iconic movie like Star Wars.

I can't speak for Holst, but Stravinsky was definitely not pleased how his music was used in an even more iconic movie like Fantasia.   And he even gave permission!

[kishnevi]

I can't speak for Holst, but Stravinsky was definitely not pleased how his music was used in an even more iconic movie like Fantasia.   And he even gave permission!

But Fantasia is not quite the same thing.  There the music was explicitly a performance of Stravinsky's music, not some new piece of music which just happened to sound a lot like Stravinsky, and Stravinsky was (IIRC) not happy with the way his music was presented.

There are obviously a lot of influences at work on any composer, but they don't necessarily rise to the level of plagiarism.  What is important is how the original the second composer is--what he does with the music that the original composer didn't do.

And some borrowings are downright puzzling.  I'd still like to know (to use a definitely non film instance) why Williams decided to use the same exact instrumentation as Quatour pour le fin du temps when he wrote a piece for Obama's inauguration.   Was he trying to suggest Obama was the Second Coming?

[Leon]

But Fantasia is not quite the same thing.  There the music was explicitly a performance of Stravinsky's music, not some new piece of music which just happened to sound a lot like Stravinsky, and Stravinsky was (IIRC) not happy with the way his music was presented.

There are obviously a lot of influences at work on any composer, but they don't necessarily rise to the level of plagiarism.  What is important is how the original the second composer is--what he does with the music that the original composer didn't do.

And some borrowings are downright puzzling.  I'd still like to know (to use a definitely non film instance) why Williams decided to use the same exact instrumentation as Quatour pour le fin du temps when he wrote a piece of Obama's inauguration.   Was he trying to suggest Obama was the Second Coming?

My post was in response to the idea that Holst ought naturally to be thrilled that Williams adapted his music, or at least, heavily incorporated elements from it, for a popular movie. 

However, if Stravinsky was not so humbled by being a part of a popular movie and had the chutzpah to gripe at how his music was used, and he was aware of the fact his music was being used, then all the more is it reasonable to assume Holst might not be pleased at Williams' appropriation when he no choice in the matter.

[Karl Henning]

I don't care how much John Williams steals from classical composers because that's irrelevant.

Did someone forget to advise you that you are not the authority on what is relevant?

[Karl Henning]

... if Stravinsky was not so humbled by being a part of a popular movie and had the chutzpah to gripe at how his music was used, and he was aware of the fact his music was being used....

The story is a curious one, and (in a nutshell) Disney had him by the short hairs.

[71 dB]

Did someone forget to advise you that you are not the authority on what is relevant?

Yes, you did dear King Karl. Your greatness has such a bad memory.

Sorry pal but I didn't grow up in an authoritarian environment. I believe we all are supposed to use our own head to find out what is relevant and what is not. Bad for you Kings and Lords, good for common man. 

[Karl Henning]

Simply crediting the originals would end this controversy. What's so hard about that? Is it a money thing? Creative artists allude to and quote the work of others all the time, intending their audiences to see the connections. These are part of the sense a new work makes.

I don't see this as a matter of Williams wanting the audience to see connections.  As Poju points out, Holst was used in the finishing process, and Williams was told, "Give me something like this." It has the look of an invitation to plagiarize.

I should characterize the difference between what Stravinsky did and what Williams does roughly as follows: say they are both pupils handing in a paper at school.  Stravinsky employs found materials, creates something of mastery and in his own voice, at a high artistic level; the teacher grades him an A.  Williams is a little rushed to complete the assignment, takes pre-existing materials, shifts things around a little;  the result is not identifiable as Williams (unlike, say, the marches he wrote for Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, 1941 . . . fellow had a talent for marches!)  If the teacher catches him out, he's graded an F, and warned that further acts of plagiarism may result in suspension.

[Cato]

The Holst/Star Wars thing is interesting, because my students (7th Graders for this story) immediately say "Star Wars" when I crank up Holst's The Planets for a mythological section of my Latin course.

One of Williams' earlier scores, also around the Star Wars/Indiana Jones era, which I think outdoes the music for those series, was for a semi-science fiction movie directed by Brian DePalma called The Fury with Kirk Douglas (near 60 at the time), John Cassavetes, and Charles Durning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fury_(1978_film)

The opening motif slowly traces a D minor chord (I believe, my memory of the key might be wrong) with an added 6th, (D-F-A-Bb-A-F-D)  and he builds on that throughout the overture, and throughout the rest of the movie, a slam-bang affair with one of the most incredible endings in movie history.

Is anything there plagiarized?  No, but you can hear at times something Honeggerian, Herrmannesque, etc.