An Earnest Inquiry (of John Williams fans)

[71 dB]

Can't say that I have, Karl. I'm really not a big movie buff anyway. I'm not sure if I told you this, but the last movie I saw in the theater was The Lord of the Rings: Two Towers.

A movie that suffers in my opinion from mediocre music score.

[Mirror Image]

A movie that suffers in my opinion from mediocre music score.

The music doesn't change or alter my view of a film and if it does, then I probably shouldn't be watching it in the first place. It's the stories and characters (plus their own development) that I'm interested in when watching a film.

[Karl Henning]

A movie that suffers in my opinion from mediocre music score.

Well, but why do you think less well of Shore's score here, than of Williams, Poju?

[71 dB]

It's not that I feel the need to put him down, it's just that I think it's funny that so many people just put the guy up on a pedestal like he's some kind of god.

He's no god, just one of the best movie composers out there with a phenomenal career. People like that are very often put up on a pedestal.

[71 dB]

Well, but why do you think less well of Shore's score here, than of Williams, Poju?

Isn't that obvious? Because I find it inferior.

[Karl Henning]

Isn't that obvious? Because I find it inferior.

Silly me!  And here I thought there might be musical reasons which you could discuss, and which some besides myself would have found interesting. But no! You just opine that the one is inferior to the other.

Sure, I should have guessed . . . .

[71 dB]

Silly me!  And here I thought there might be musical reasons which you could discuss, and which some besides myself would have found interesting. But no! You just opine that the one is inferior to the other.

Sure, I should have guessed . . . .

I'll make this clear: I don't have music education to be able to discuss music theory. Music has an effect on me and based on that I evaluate it in terms like "bad", "rhythmic", "melodic", "good", "relaxing", "simple", "complex" etc. Music theory for the most part is too difficult for me to understand. I have tried and given up. Who the hell can figure out all those augmented chords and stuff??? Math is easy compared to music theory! I understand chords mathematically based on how the frequencies of notes relate to each other (consonance/dissonance) but musicians like to name things with confusing names that only gives me a headache.

[mszczuj]

The music doesn't change or alter my view of a film and if it does, then I probably shouldn't be watching it in the first place. It's the stories and characters (plus their own development) that I'm interested in when watching a film.

But, you know, they live in the music, the characters, as all we do.

Do you like Peter and the Wolf? Williams is exactly the same kind of music.

[eyeresist]

As to some of the ancillary notions which have cropped up:

1.   Call this obvious, but the fact that Williams was paid (and paid well) for his work (nor the fact that his work garnered awards), is not of itself any indication of the quality of the work.  That is, taking those facts as proof either that his work is worthless, or that it is great, is about equally pointless.
2.   Williams is undeniably talented. Personally, I am not sure that I consider him the "greatest" among those who have written for film, but (a) the case can be made, and (b) he is certainly many cuts above the 'worst."
3.   No one who finds enjoyment in Williams's work need "justify" that to anyone else.

Certainly. I realised eventually that our disagreement was really over the usage of the word "plagiarism", to which I would apply the stricter definition I recall from certain forms I had to sign in academic days....

What is the future of Williams's music? Well, I can imagine in a century's time people buying collections of his hits (Luke & Leia Theme FTW) in the same way we now buy collections of Suppe overtures and Strauss waltzes. The complete scores will remain attached to the films themselves, the best of which I think would be far lesser works without his contribution.

The music doesn't change or alter my view of a film and if it does, then I probably shouldn't be watching it in the first place. It's the stories and characters (plus their own development) that I'm interested in when watching a film.

No gesamtkunstwerk for MI .

[Karl Henning]

What is the future of Williams's music?

My guess would be, that the continued fame of his work (happily for him) does not rest on its own merits.  As long as the movies are in vew and under discussion, for which he supplied (at the very least) competent and inventive scores, his name will live.

The man is, thus, already immortal.

[Karl Henning]

Well, you hold onto that hope, James!  I am certain it has not escaped you that Williams is far more famous (and will remain so for a long time) than . . . a certain German composer over whose work you regularly enthuse.  His name escapes me at the moment . . . Van Heusen, was it? ; )

[starrynight]

I have to be honest here.  I've seen each of the above movies and remember nothing about the music (bad or good).

Probably because you aren't meant to, film music is meant to serve the film more often than stand on its own merit.  In that way it might be similar to some ballet music.  Obviously there can be exceptions in such genres as well, but they aren't perhaps the norm.

[eyeresist]

I've seen the original Star Wars trilogy probably a thousand times, but it's not the music I remember, it's the characters, the story, and the special effects. The same goes with any movie I watched. I don't watch a movie for the music. It does help enhance the movie experience by having music, but, again, I'm not watching the movie to rock out to the music.

Further thoughts on this: For me the music of a film is as important as the script, the story, the acting and the visual composition. There are a number of films which I think would receive far less regard if not for their scores - but because we are primarily visual (apparently) the sonic aspect tends to be overlooked or downplayed.

The idea of not noticing music seems odd to me. I always notice the music around me, unless it is especially drab and forgettable. It's actually a sort of disability, as I can't help be affected by music whether at parties, cafes, etc. If the music is bad I get irritable and unhappy and wish I could leave - meanwhile the people around me have no idea why I'm reacting so strongly to "only music". Same if I especially like the music - my enthusiastic mood is shared by none around me

[Mirror Image]

Further thoughts on this: For me the music of a film is as important as the script, the story, the acting and the visual composition. There are a number of films which I think would receive far less regard if not for their scores - but because we are primarily visual (apparently) the sonic aspect tends to be overlooked or downplayed.

The idea of not noticing music seems odd to me. I always notice the music around me, unless it is especially drab and forgettable. It's actually a sort of disability, as I can't help be affected by music whether at parties, cafes, etc. If the music is bad I get irritable and unhappy and wish I could leave - meanwhile the people around me have no idea why I'm reacting so strongly to "only music". Same if I especially like the music - my enthusiastic mood is shared by none around me

I never said I didn't notice the music in a film, I said I don't watch a film for the music. To deny that I haven't noticed the soundtrack in any of the films I watched would certainly be a foolish thing to say, because it would be untrue. My whole point is that film music isn't important to me. What is important to one person, doesn't mean a hill of beans to somebody else. This, my friend, is what makes the world go around. This said, I do think there are several film scores that stand up well by themselves but most of these are composed by serious classical composers like RVW, Honegger, Shostakovich, Arnold, and Alwyn. I also like a few scores by Goldsmith and Morricone, but I seldom listen to film music as I put my attention into more serious music.

[71 dB]

George Lucas says that sound is 50 % of a movie. It's good to remember this wisdom everytime we start watching a movie. It's true that people don't pay much attention to sound while watching a movie but it isn't that hard to start doing so. It's all about attitude. Sound is an excellent way of improving a movie and music is one part (roughly 1/3) of sound in a movie.

[Karl Henning]

It isn't every day you read George Lucas and wisdom in consecutive sentences.

And there are reasons ; )

That said, Lucas is echoing other and finer directors, in underscoring the important role which the musical soundtrack plays.  The obvious examples are Bernard Herrmann and Shostakovich.

[Karl Henning]

I never said I didn't notice the music in a film, I said I don't watch a film for the music.

And (to be clear), I am not suggesting that you watch Kozintsev's Hamlet and King Lear "for the music," but because they are flat-out great films.  The look of them both is beautiful, the cinematography, acting and score are all exquisite.  And the Russian adaptations of Shakespeare are of historical as well as literary interest.

Although, a case could be made for watching both these "for the music" ; )

[71 dB]

He's not meaning music tho or the quality of musical composition; 'sound' entails 'everything' in the audio mix of the film which of course is important

Didn't you notice that I included the remark that music is about 1/3 of sound in a movie?

.. he's talking about the quality and projection of the sound within the theatre space, this is why he was involved with development of the THX system etc. [/font]

Technical quality of reproduction of sound is another thing but Lucas is no less interested about that aspect either. In fact, Lucas has deep undertanding of how technical and artistical sides of art are related. Innovations of stage technology had it's impact on art of Shakespeare, development of oil paint meant dramatic new possibilities for art of painting compared to fresco painting and in our time digital technology gives new possibilies to filmmaking.

[Mirror Image]

And (to be clear), I am not suggesting that you watch Kozintsev's Hamlet and King Lear "for the music," but because they are flat-out great films.  The look of them both is beautiful, the cinematography, acting and score are all exquisite.  And the Russian adaptations of Shakespeare are of historical as well as literary interest.

Although, a case could be made for watching both these "for the music" ; )

I'm glad you like these movies, Karl, but Shakespeare really isn't my thing. In fact, I don't think I've ever voluntarily read any Shakespeare at all. I remember reading his plays in high school and really hating every minute of it. I just don't relate to it at all. Now, give me some Edgar Allan Poe or Walt Whitman and I'm a happy camper.

[Karl Henning]

Well, if you don't dig Shakespeare, they won't be your bag at all. You are released!