Masses in Classical Era Austria

[Gurn Blanston]

Just a note; following all this with interest, and as soon as the hectic pace dies down a bit, will post some comments. Nice to be retired...

[Leo K.]

Wow! What a thread! Thanks Uncle Connie for your thoughts and observations, it's time to revisit Schubert and Beethoven's masses

(wishing I was retired too!)

[Uncle Connie]

Wow! What a thread! Thanks Uncle Connie for your thoughts and observations, it's time to revisit Schubert and Beethoven's masses

(wishing I was retired too!)

You're welcome of course, half the fun is sharing things, the other half is learning.  See, I just stroked everybody's egos....

Warning about being retired:  One of the prerequisites generally is that you get old.  Do not rush that process!  Wait your turn!

[Gurn Blanston]

You're welcome of course, half the fun is sharing things, the other half is learning.  See, I just stroked everybody's egos....

Warning about being retired:  One of the prerequisites generally is that you get old.  Do not rush that process!  Wait your turn!

  I'm already one day older than dirt....

[Uncle Connie]

  I'm already one day older than dirt....

Yeah, well, I guess that makes me older than dirt's parents, doesn't it?

But I've got a secret for you.  Keep it strictly to yourself....

SSHHH - it happens.

[Uncle Connie]

Well, here am I again, moving further into what I said yesterday about the extended influence of Gurn's boys of the 18th Century, and just how far that influence seeped into the works of successor composers for a very long time after the Haydns were dust.

Consider this:





Anton Bruckner, he of the monster symphonies and massive brass chorales, wrote six Masses - seven if you count a Requiem.  Including the latter, the present work is the fourth and dates from 1854 (but may have been partly sketched earlier).  That is fifty-two years after Joseph Haydn wrote his last Mass, and takes in the entire careers of Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, almost all of Schumann and a fair amount of Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner.  And yet, from a 30-year old Bruckner, we get music that inspires the following review comment (copied from ArkivMusic.com, which got it from Gramophone):  "What {this Mass} tells us is that Bruckner was already adventurous, for his time, in his use of harmony and his comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the sacred music of Haydn and Mozart. It is Haydn especially who is brought to mind by the joyful, bounding orchestral commentary which accompanies the choir's excited cries of 'Kyrie eleison'. The Credo and Agnus Dei are the most conventional movements; they might have been written by any of several competent church composers of the day. But there is no mistaking the Brucknerian imprimatur in the trumpets in the Gloria...."

So we have a point, half a century removed from the classic Viennese masters, at which Bruckner is in effect looking in both directions at once, and creating a synthesis - a minor one, to be sure, as his great days were another decade and a half to come, but still a solid piece of work by a direct successor of the people we're supposed to be dealing with here.  And the line is indeed directly back to Our Boys:  Bruckner studied with Simon Sechter, who studied with Albrechtsberger, and we all know where that puts us, right?  (But - small confession; the above is true except that Bruckner didn't start his studies with Sechter until the year after he wrote this Mass.) 

Anyway - this is where I leave off in the extensions and in my quest to double-underscore Gurn's point about enduring and long-lasting influence.  Now, musicologists can of course take music written long after this point and demonstrate clearly that the Haydn-Mozart era still has influence all the way up to today.  But to find that influence so specific, in such bold and sharply-chiseled chunks, becomes in my experience quite a bit more difficult after about the time of this Bruckner.  Even Bruckner's three "great" masses from just ten years later, while still grounded in the obvious progression of tonal musical development, somehow no longer smell all that much of Haydn.

So this is where Gurn is leading us, and personally I think we'd all be wise to follow his lead, as it's immensely rewarding.  (And as a final afternote, the present Bruckner has only been recorded this one time; the performance can be had as shown here, or in a two-disc reissue coupled with a pretty good reading of Bruckner's even earlier Requiem, 1849 - the work that Bruckner freaks sometimes refer to as Bruckner's first work that actually sounds like him.  Worth having for those who like to explore.)     

[Gurn Blanston]

Very interesting post, Conrad! I tell you honestly here that I didn't really know where I was leading this discussion, because I haven't been down this road yet. I do have the Hummel masses, and of course, Schubert and Beethoven, but that's as far as I've gone post-Haydn. Which is the point, I think, since we are on a voyage of discovery.

I do want to give Bruckner his due, though. His symphonies are far too large for me to get my head wrapped around them, but his sacred music has a lot of appeal. It should be an interesting road traveled by the time we reach that point.

[Gurn Blanston]

Time I got on board the train.
It contains the St.Hieronymus Mass MH 254 from 1777, about which even Leopold Mozart (who in general had a less-than-warm opinion of Michael Haydn, perhaps in part because Haydn got the jobs Leopold thought he should have had) veritably gushed in a letter to Wolfgang. It's unusual in that it has no stringed instruments in the score:  Oboes, bassoons, trombones and organ, that's it.  The work is sometimes called the Oboe Mass because the first oboe part dominates almost throughout. The Pierre Cao recording here, a 'period' performance, is an absolute joy; of the four recordings made so far of this mass, it's enough superior to the Graden version on BIS that I'd choose Cao if I could have just one.  An older CD led by Raimund Hug is good but less impressive than the other two.  (A fourth recording on LPs only from the University of Missouri at Columbia is far in the distance and in any case unobtainable.) 

Just listening to this mass for the first time. The St. Hieronymus (St. Jerome, that is) Oboe Mass. I must say, it is brilliant! The Quoniam of the Gloria, which starts out with the oboe(s) playing a little exotic, 'Turkish' sounding tune is absolutely kicking! Quite unlike any mass music I have heard before. No wonder Leopold gushed.   

[Uncle Connie]

BIG, BIG ERROR HERE!!  A couple hours ago I posted some discussion about the Bruckner Missa solemnis in B-Flat, and as a pendant to my comments I included the following:  "(And as a final afternote, the present Bruckner has only been recorded this one time; the performance can be had as shown here, or in a two-disc reissue coupled with a pretty good reading of Bruckner's even earlier Requiem, 1849 - the work that Bruckner freaks sometimes refer to as Bruckner's first work that actually sounds like him.  Worth having for those who like to explore.)"

This is not true at all.  The pressing I own is the single disc as mentioned (and pictured).  I noted the double-disc in the Amazon listings and, in haste, wrote the above without paying proper attention.  The two-disc set does include the Missa solemnis, but the Requiem involved isn't Bruckner's, it's Mozart's.  In a performance I've never heard, so my "pretty good" statement is gibberish.  I assumed it was the Requiem recording I do have, but that's on Hyperion, not Virgin....

Anyway.  We all step in it sometimes.  Today was my day.  I'm sorry.     

[Gurn Blanston]

BIG, BIG ERROR HERE!!  A couple hours ago I posted some discussion about the Bruckner Missa solemnis in B-Flat, and as a pendant to my comments I included the following:  "(And as a final afternote, the present Bruckner has only been recorded this one time; the performance can be had as shown here, or in a two-disc reissue coupled with a pretty good reading of Bruckner's even earlier Requiem, 1849 - the work that Bruckner freaks sometimes refer to as Bruckner's first work that actually sounds like him.  Worth having for those who like to explore.)"

This is not true at all.  The pressing I own is the single disc as mentioned (and pictured).  I noted the double-disc in the Amazon listings and, in haste, wrote the above without paying proper attention.  The two-disc set does include the Missa solemnis, but the Requiem involved isn't Bruckner's, it's Mozart's.  In a performance I've never heard, so my "pretty good" statement is gibberish.  I assumed it was the Requiem recording I do have, but that's on Hyperion, not Virgin....

Anyway.  We all step in it sometimes.  Today was my day.  I'm sorry.   

  No to worry; if that's the worst thing you've done today you're way ahead of me. I bet when André comes around again he will give that some thought anyway. He knows the most obscure recordings sometimes! 

[Lilas Pastia]

Mike, this is just what I was feebly hinting at, and Conrad beautifully put it across: believe it or not, but Bruckner manages to pick up the thread that somehow seems to have broken with the Solemnis and Schubert's late masses: forget about the 40 year hiatus that in 19th century chronology would suggest the passing of at least a couple of aesthetic eras or movements, and listen to Bruckner's last three Masses. They are of the same stock, roots and climate as Schubert's, Beethoven's and Hummel's.

Well, hi Lis  ! No I had no clue about Orffs' burial place in Ettal. When I travel to Germany it's always with wife and mom-in-law in tow.  My wife will let me visit anything as long as I'm back in an hour   , but Mutti has a way of organizing a tour or an excursion as if it were a military campaign.  Therefore any type of visit has to be informative, expedient and efficient. I must encapsulate, digest and summarize  every bit of valuable info I can get my hands on so she can relay it to her friends whe we're back in Malmedy. In these small towns every trip
abroad is fodder for street encounters or market day chatting (buying meat or fruits is but a pretext) where any valuable bit of information is dutifully shared with the full expectation that within a week the whole town will know about it. I tell you: information and efficiency is everything This year we were in Aachen (again) and Trier, and thanks to my nonpareil capacity for information gathering, I managed to unearth valuable data she could share with her friends - even though she had beent there a few times before. I love her dearly. She always makes me ant to surpass her expectations!

[Gurn Blanston]

Mike, this is just what I was feebly hinting at, and Conrad beautifully put it across: believe it or not, but Bruckner manages to pick up the thread that somehow seems to have broken with the Solemnis and Schubert's late masses: forget about the 40 year hiatus that in 19th century chronology would suggest the passing of at least a couple of aesthetic eras or movements, and listen to Bruckner's last three Masses. They are of the same stock, roots and climate as Schubert's, Beethoven's and Hummel's.

Well, hi Lis  ! No I had no clue about Orffs' burial place in Ettal. When I travel to Germany it's always with wife and mom-in-law in tow.  My wife will let me visit anything as long as I'm back in an hour   , but Mutti has a way of organizing a tour or an excursion as if it were a military campaign.  Therefore any type of visit has to be informative, expedient and efficient. I must encapsulate, digest and summarize  every bit of valuable info I can get my hands on so she can relay it to her friends whe we're back in Malmedy. In these small towns every trip
abroad is fodder for street encounters or market day chatting (buying meat or fruits is but a pretext) where any valuable bit of information is dutifully shared with the full expectation that within a week the whole town will know about it. I tell you: information and efficiency is everything This year we were in Aachen (again) and Trier, and thanks to my nonpareil capacity for information gathering, I managed to unearth valuable data she could share with her friends - even though she had beent there a few times before. I love her dearly. She always makes me ant to surpass her expectations!

André,
Yes, I could see without doubt that this was the direction that ll these things were going. I just haven't spent any time in the modern era yet. But bringing Beethoven into it for a minute; I think that at least 2 lines of descent formed from him. And the second one, based on the Missa Solemnis, is what we would now call 'concert masses'. That is, not really intended (or suitable) to play in church for an actual mass ceremony. That tradition continues even today, I think, with many 20th century masses (Bernstein's leaps to mind) being actually concert masses. Maybe not, I haven't made any sort of study of the phenomenon, but I think so anyway. Whereas Bruckner's masses were actually intended to be masses, unless I am mistaken about him. I'll have to ponder this for a bit.

Mutti sounds like my kind of woman, at least in the short term. I can see that training around Central Europe with her would be a blast!

[Uncle Connie]

When I travel to Germany it's always with wife and mom-in-law in tow.  My wife will let me visit anything as long as I'm back in an hour   , but Mutti has a way of organizing a tour or an excursion as if it were a military campaign.  Therefore any type of visit has to be informative, expedient and efficient. I must encapsulate, digest and summarize  every bit of valuable info I can get my hands on so she can relay it to her friends whe we're back in Malmedy. In these small towns every trip
abroad is fodder for street encounters or market day chatting (buying meat or fruits is but a pretext) where any valuable bit of information is dutifully shared with the full expectation that within a week the whole town will know about it. I tell you: information and efficiency is everything This year we were in Aachen (again) and Trier, and thanks to my nonpareil capacity for information gathering, I managed to unearth valuable data she could share with her friends - even though she had been there a few times before. I love her dearly. She always makes me ant to surpass her expectations!

I think I'd be miserable following along with Mutti - because I want to roam, sometimes in an organized way, sometimes just randomly.  Which is why we got badly lost in Munich and slightly lost twice in Vienna.  My next trip, no tour guide, little of a formal agenda, just me and wife prancing through the city wherever we happen to have gotten off the bus.  Of course we may never find our hotel again, but that's minor.

[Leon]

The only Hummel Mass I have heard is this one:

[asin]B000001SEW[/asin]

But there is at least one other in D Major that I haven't heard. 

[Uncle Connie]

The only Hummel Mass I have heard is this one:

[asin]B000001SEW[/asin]

But there is at least one other in D Major that I haven't heard. 

So far as I am aware there are five in print.  One disc, the cheapest and easiest to acquire as an introduction, would be this:

[asin]B000273AOY[/asin]

(And don't be put off by the guy who gave it just one star on Amazon; the review is hogwash.)

The other four readily available - I won't bother with pictures - are all on Chandos conducted by Hickox.  Catalogue numbers 0681, 0712 and 0724.  Over the course of his three discs Hickox also included some filler items, a couple of Graduals, a Salve, and the same Te Deum as on Grodd's Naxos disc - the only duplication.  (Grodd takes it slightly slower; I think Hickox's brighter and more martial approach is probably better suited to the intent of this militaristic thing, but I kind of like Grodd's more introspective darkness.)  Arnold:  The D Major you mention knowing about would be the Op.111 on one of the Hickox discs; on another of then is a d minor one, an earlier work and unpublished (WoO). 

Hummel wrote this stuff for Esterhaza, as Haydn's successor there, between 1804 and -08, thereby extending the Haydn tradition of one Mass per year for the name-day of the Princess Esterhazy.  (A few other composers contributed works to this run of annual Masses also:  Somebody named Fuchs of whom I know nothing, and Albrechtsberger, and a minor insignificant upstart named Beethoven....)  Clearly the basis for Hummel's music is Haydn and Mozart; this continued structurally throughout Hummel's life.  He never wrote another Mass after the Op. 111 in 1808; and once he left Esterhaza he turned into a grand flamboyant piano virtuoso and became somewhat shallower the composer, which has tarnished his reputation badly until the last generation or so has resuscitated it. 

[Sammy]

So far as I am aware there are five in print.  One disc, the cheapest and easiest to acquire as an introduction, would be this:

[asin]B000273AOY[/asin]

(And don't be put off by the guy who gave it just one star on Amazon; the review is hogwash.)

I wouldn't exactly call these responses "reviews"; they're more like customer comments.  But, yes, one star is quite extreme for a good recording of some fine music.  Another customer gave it 5 stars; when comparing it to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, this customer stated that Beethoven's work was "not worth remembering".  Overall, I find all these comments useless.

[Uncle Connie]

I wouldn't exactly call these responses "reviews"; they're more like customer comments.  But, yes, one star is quite extreme for a good recording of some fine music.  Another customer gave it 5 stars; when comparing it to Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, this customer stated that Beethoven's work was "not worth remembering".  Overall, I find all these comments useless.

Yes, you have a point; a fair number of these "reviews" (I do agree, mostly "comments" is closer) are a waste of their time to type and my time to read.  But if you read enough of them anyway, you will find a few repeat reviewers who do indeed know what they're talking about and have things of real value to say.  My personal favorite is J. Scott Morrison, a retired M.D. in Vermont, who has written an immense quantity of incisive and useful material, and has guided me to quite a few fine things that I might otherwise have skipped.  Unfortunately, in order to find the Dr. Morrisons of the Amazon world, you have to wade through a whole lot of tripe.   

[Uncle Connie]

Not really off-topic, but perhaps a bit down a side passageway and back into a dark corner behind the servants' staircase:

As a consequence of this thread I have been reviewing my holdings.  And I note that in the matter of the six masses of Schubert there is a bit of an issue.  Namely, much of what I've got is politely described as OLD, and not so politely described as REALLY OLD, and in desperate need of upgrade I'd think.  But I have no idea what to get because I haven't heard anything modern at all.  So I'd appreciate some ideas. 

Here's what I have:

1 in F:  George Barati, Vienna Symphony, on a Tuxedo reissue from LPs in the early 60s.  I actually plan to keep this no matter what, because of a big soft spot for Barati's contribution to both Haydn and Schubert - he gave us very fine readings of both Schubert's 1 and 4, and Haydn's Nicolai and Harmonie.  All were first-ever recordings except the last one, and that might as well have been too since its only predecessor was awful.  Also, there's the sympathy due owing to the ghastly end of his life, when at age 83 he went for an evening walk near his home in San Jose, California, and was mugged and murdered.  So very not fair!!  So in his memory I'll keep all four of those old discs, along with a couple of discs of his own music which I find, er, well, difficult but not godawful like so much modernistic stuff.... 

2 in G:  Romano Gandolfi, Prague Chamber Choir & Orch., on a 1993 Discover CD (real cheapie Belgian label, gone now) which actually is pretty good but could doubtless be improved upon.

3 in B-Flat:  Jack Händler, Prague Chamber Choir & Orch., another Discover disc I picked up for $2 in a sell-off when the Tower chain closed down.  Same comment as preceding.  And that is the second of two Discover conductors that I've never heard of, before or since. 

4 in C:  Well actually, here I seem to have two versions.  One's the Barati, cf. No. 1 above.  The other is David Atherton's on London (or Decca for Brits).  I won't be giving up either disc; Barati's for reasons stated, Atherton's because it's autographed (he lives here, and used to conduct our orchestra (two bankruptcies ago)).  But as a listening experience they're both rather dated, so.... 

5 in A-Flat:  George Guest, St.Martin-in-the-Fields, London/Decca - same disc as Atherton's No. 4.  Recorded 1977.  Good in its day, but that was then.

6 in E-Flat.  George Guest, as preceding; rec. 1975.   

     So - which of you has what that you'd like to suggest as a better choice for any of this?  With all due respect to my buddy Gurn, I couldn't care less about "period performance" as long as the result is good.  (But I don't avoid such performances either.  The operative word is "good.")

     Thanks for any ideas.  Oh - money is no object.  (It actually is, from my end of things, but don't consider it in your ideas; you provide suggestions, I'll sort out the exchecquer as I can.)   

     And wasn't it nice of Schubert to write six masses and never repeat a key signature, so you don't have to memorize the catalogue numbers?

[Gurn Blanston]

  PI not important. What a joker you are, Conrad!   

Anyway, seriously, this is the only actual set of Schubert masses that I have;

[asin]B00009PBXF[/asin]

and I am very partial to it. And money IS no object, since it is a virtual giveaway. Weil has always been a brilliant conductor of masses, and no exception here, beyond not working with Tafelmusik, a minor surprise. The OAE and Vienna Boys' Choir are fine musicians though.

[Wanderer]

I'd emphatically recommend Sawallisch's 7-disc EMI boxset of Schubert's sacred music, but a quick search showed it has sadly gone out of print. 
Don't hesitate if you happen to come by it somewhere.

Off the top of my head, I'd also recommend Harnoncourt, as well as this.