Masses in Classical Era Austria

[mc ukrneal]

I'd emphatically recommend Sawallisch's 7-disc EMI boxset of Schubert's sacred music, but a quick search showed it has sadly gone out of print. 
Don't hesitate if you happen to come by it somewhere.

Berkshire have a double disc of 5 and 6.

EDIT: Actually, I see it close to the same price on Amazon but with a third mass.

[Lilas Pastia]

There's a nice A Flat from Carl Bamberger. It's offered as a free dowload on Random Classics blogspot. Typical regional german music making from the late fifties, warts and all. Maybe not 1820 authentic, but certified ur-fifties stuff.

For the E Flat, easily Schubert's best work in the genre, no period or non-period version I've heard comes close to the glorious mid sixties EMI under Leinsdorf. Berlin Phil, St-Hedwig choir, soloists (Pilar Lorengar, Josef Traxel among others), recorded in Jesus-Christus Kirche in beautiful stereo. Had it on a Seraphim Lp for many years. As far as I can ascertain, it's never been available on cd. But with majors ditching their catalogue like there's no tomorrow, one can only hope. Leinsdorf was capable of the best (!), and this is a great Schubert recording.

[kishnevi]

  PI not important. What a joker you are, Conrad!   

Anyway, seriously, this is the only actual set of Schubert masses that I have;

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and I am very partial to it. And money IS no object, since it is a virtual giveaway. Weil has always been a brilliant conductor of masses, and no exception here, beyond not working with Tafelmusik, a minor surprise. The OAE and Vienna Boys' Choir are fine musicians though.

I have that one, and have never been tempted to look for another one.

I do believe, however, that it's now been reissued as one of those Vivarte budget boxes, in the same group as the Tafelmusik Hadyn set.

[Opus106]

I'd emphatically recommend Sawallisch's 7-disc EMI boxset of Schubert's sacred music, but a quick search showed it has sadly gone out of print. 

Nah, it was re-released last year with a different cover and with four more CDs. 

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[Leon]

Re: Schubert Masses

I checked what was available on Spotify and found quite a bit.  Right now listening to Harnoncourt doing #5 in A-flat.

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[mc ukrneal]

Well, I have finally gotten around to listening to the Naxos disc of Schubert's Mass No. 5 (which I posted on the listening thread). This one:
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I love the sound and precision of this. The singing is excellent . It is tender when it should be, but also rousing as well. It has a lightness and deftness that I enjoyed. I don't know how this compares to any other version, but I imagine it holds its own.

Apparently Schubert revised this mass to gain a post of Court Vice-Kapellmeister. It has so many different ideas crammed into one piece. Apparently it was never actually played to gain the position as he was told that that "It was not in the style favoured by the Emperor, whose tastes in this respect were conservative." I am not really sure what this means in the context of the mass. Can anyone help decode this? (It was taken from the Naxos site).

[Uncle Connie]

Well, I have finally gotten around to listening to the Naxos disc of Schubert's Mass No. 5 (which I posted on the listening thread). This one:
[asin]B003Y3O1T6[/asin]
I love the sound and precision of this. The singing is excellent . It is tender when it should be, but also rousing as well. It has a lightness and deftness that I enjoyed. I don't know how this compares to any other version, but I imagine it holds its own.

Apparently Schubert revised this mass to gain a post of Court Vice-Kapellmeister. It has so many different ideas crammed into one piece. Apparently it was never actually played to gain the position as he was told that that "It was not in the style favoured by the Emperor, whose tastes in this respect were conservative." I am not really sure what this means in the context of the mass. Can anyone help decode this? (It was taken from the Naxos site).

My only actual Schubert reference to hand is Deutsch's catalogue, which isn't terribly helpful.  He tells us that there are variant versions of some sections, and that Schubert intended to dedicate the Mass to the Emperor and Empress (which was what people did in those days when they wanted royal favor - and a job!).  The fact that the revised version doesn't get its own catalogue number, and thus a separate listing, suggests that the variants are rather minor.  The booklet to the George Guest recording is even less useful:  It says, in total, and I quote:  "He probably began work on [the Mass] in 1819; he definitely completed it in 1822, although he later made revisions."  Wow.  That's useful!

Anybody got one of the standard critical bios of Schubert?  I need to get one - Maurice Brown, Brian Newbould (or, if you read German, Deutsch's).  Lots of cheap used copies of Brown's on ABE, 'scuse me while I spend a small bit.  If nobody else can help with this, I'll report back in a couple of weeks when I get my book.

[kishnevi]

Herewith the pertinent paragraph from the liner notes from the Weil/OAE set, by someone named Julian Haycock of whom I've never heard.

The Mass in A flat, D.678, took Schubert an uncharacteristically long period of time to complete--far longer, in fact, than any of his other works, including those for the stage.  Intended as a setting on a grand scale for no less a figure than the Emperor himself, Schubert appears to have been inhibited by the audacity of his own vision.   In true Beethovian style, he made countless sketches in an attempt to help develop and refine his ideas into a coherent and convincing form, but it was not until September 1822 that the work was finally ready.   However, even this was not an end of the matter.   In January 1826 Schubert returned to the score, giving it a thorough overhaul as well as composing a new Cum Sancto Spiritu section.   After years of unstinting effort, Schubert submitted the work for the Emperor's approval only to be told that whatever its artistic merits, it was in a style that was felt to be inappropriate.     This was actually a veiled reference to the fact that Schubert's lyrical instincts were to the fore in D.678, with the normal fugal sections (a texture Schubert never really mastered) reduced to just the Cum Sancto Spiritu at the end of the Gloria [perhaps there's a link here to the fact that this was the section he totally recomposed?--JS].  By breaking the traditional rules of Mass settings, Schubert may have moved forward artistically, but in so doing  ironically blew any chance of ingratiating himself with power at the highest political level.

In the general comments about the masses as a group,  he notes that

The hierarchical structure of Catholicism was anathema to him, which explains why in each of his masses he omits the words Et in unam Sanctum catholican ecclesiam.  [which no doubt did not help endear him to the Imperial Court when he sent in this mass--JS]  Although an expression of sincerely held views, Schubert's Masses belong to the Beethoven-Bruckner tradition of religious works that are intended for worship on a grand scale rather than normal day-to-day liturgical use.

[Uncle Connie]

Thanks, Jeffery - of course, I notice you waited until I'd already ordered a used copy of Newbould before posting.      (Not really, of course; given that I'm inclined to read just about anything I can on a topic of interest, I should have bought this book aeons ago.)

And apropos of revisions or alternate sections, note that the Benedictus of the Mass in C D.452 exists in two distinct versions, and in this case they do have distinct numbers.  The publisher Diabelli had printed this Mass in 1825 but apparently later thought the difficulty of the soprano part in the Benedictus inhibited sales (and performances), so he asked Schubert for a simpler version to offer; Schubert supplied one a couple of weeks before his death, October 1828, now listed as D.961.  [Note that the catalogue, and Schubert, end at D.965; the numbers after that are supplementary.]

And while I'm here, thanks to all of you who have ensured my bankruptcy by suggesting so many Schubert editions, all of which I simply must have.  (But a little at a time, as I'm not rolling in the moolah.)  If ever anyone hears of a way to obtain a copy of the Leinsdorf E-Flat that Andre notes, please let us all know, but especially greedy ol' me.

Julian Haycock - no idea what his formal qualifications are, but he writes for the International Record Review site, and has done a book on Rachmaninoff which you can buy on Amazon if you wish.  I've seen the name in CD booklet notes but couldn't tell you specifically where. 

Andre:  In addition to the Bamberger A-Flat you mention, which I will go track down, there's a professional-quality CDR reissue of another wonderful old version, from DGG, Bavarian Radio and Regensburg Boys, soloists including Maria Stader and Ernst Häfliger, cond. Georg Ratzinger.  Wonderful, very south-German traditional from the 50s.  $12 from HaydnHouse.com (+ $2 postage), no booklet but wonderfully engineered if their other work is any indication.  The conductor, as a point of trivia, was the brother of the current Pope.

[Uncle Connie]

Most of today was spent mentally juggling Schubert and Weber masses (and spending money on things), and as it turned out most of the spending went the other way from the Haydn era:  Instead of the successors, I decided to poke into one of the great predecessors of the era we're talking about:


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The first is orchestral and has been ordered.  The second is vocal and will be ordered in due course.  Well worth including in this thread owing to his influence on Haydn and on Viennese music of all types for quite some while after his death (1741).  Also wrote one of the half-dozen most influential music theory treatises in history, Gradus ad Parnassum.   

[kishnevi]

Also wrote one of the half-dozen most influential music theory treatises in history, Gradus ad Parnassum.   

Which is one of the densest and thorniest books I have ever read outside of mathematics.  What I have is a Dover reprint of a mid 20th century British translation of the part of GaP which deals specifically with counterpoint (and in fact, the the title is given as "The Study of Counterpoint from Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum").  It's the sort of book which, if you don't pay strict attention to every sentence, will quickly leave you hopelessly confused.

[Uncle Connie]

Which is one of the densest and thorniest books I have ever read outside of mathematics.  What I have is a Dover reprint of a mid 20th century British translation of the part of GaP which deals specifically with counterpoint (and in fact, the the title is given as "The Study of Counterpoint from Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum").  It's the sort of book which, if you don't pay strict attention to every sentence, will quickly leave you hopelessly confused.

Rough guess - I'd get hopelessly confused regardless of attention paid.  I once checked a copy (of some translation or other) out of the library and gave it a go for the allotted three weeks.  As a practical matter all I learned was that his name was Johann Joseph, not Joseph Johann.  There is just something about teaching a topic that is inherently dry, by a method that makes it drier still.  Perhaps I was too coddled in school.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Rough guess - I'd get hopelessly confused regardless of attention paid.  I once checked a copy (of some translation or other) out of the library and gave it a go for the allotted three weeks.  As a practical matter all I learned was that his name was Johann Joseph, not Joseph Johann.  There is just something about teaching a topic that is inherently dry, by a method that makes it drier still.  Perhaps I was too coddled in school.

Joseph Haydn considered it to be one of the Great Books of the Western World though. In his effects after his death was a copy that is believed to be the same one that he talks about having as one of his few possessions back in the early 1750's. It is covered in marginal notes, some of which actually correct some of Fux's solutions. He also made every student he had (many, including Pleyel, Reicha and Beethoven) study out of their own copy.

I think it is all in how the brain works. Like Conrad, I would have been happy that it helped me get his name straight...

[mc ukrneal]

Herewith the pertinent paragraph from the liner notes from the Weil/OAE set, by someone named Julian Haycock of whom I've never heard.In the general comments about the masses as a group,  he notes that

Very interesting. Thanks for that!

[Leo K.]

Just listening to this mass for the first time. The St. Hieronymus (St. Jerome, that is) Oboe Mass. I must say, it is brilliant! The Quoniam of the Gloria, which starts out with the oboe(s) playing a little exotic, 'Turkish' sounding tune is absolutely kicking! Quite unlike any mass music I have heard before. No wonder Leopold gushed.   

I too am listening to the St. Hieronymus mass for the first time. It is very unique! And brilliant! I am so glad I know of it now!

[Uncle Connie]

I too am listening to the St. Hieronymus mass for the first time. It is very unique! And brilliant! I am so glad I know of it now!

This is indeed a gem of a mass and I am having a great deal of trouble understanding why we haven't had maybe 500 versions of it by now, as with the Missa Solemnis and Berlioz' Requiem and Faure's Requiem and so forth.  But, well, you know how these things go, the world sometimes rotates in a slightly different orbit than mine....

There's a third version, download only - I have no idea whether it was ever a CD, I can find no reference to one - and IMNTHO* it's the best of the three.  But honestly, not by much; they're all superb.  I have a theory about how music of this excellence inspires quality performances only, no other is possible.  Probably rubbish, but I like believing it, so don't you dare disabuse me.  (Hell, even the fourth version - the first ever done, back in the 1960s, and by a University group at that - was truly, sincerely top level work.  Too bad you can't hear that any more, it would give real feet to my theory....)

This downloaded Pierre Cao version also has another mass for wind-accompaniment only, by a minor composer to be sure, but still distinct and worth repeated hearings.  But then, I very much want the 'filler' material on the other two CDs as well.  So you know, there's really only one solution.... 

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\          ( * IMNTHO - In My Not Terribly Humble Opinion.  Ten points if you figured that out on your own.) 

[Gurn Blanston]

Indeed, I have that BIS disk too, and was spurred on by Leo's post to give it a listen yesterday. The choral work is superb; the Graduals are a capella and very nicely worked out. But the instrumentalists are one of my favorite PI wind groups, Ensemble Philidor. By way of dropping names, their Mozart Gran Partitta is top of the heap material. In any case, despite that BIS have their own unique way of listing 'movements', it is still the Gloria: Quoniam which is the most unique thing I have heard in a mass. M. Haydn is undoubtedly an unsung sort of guy, moreso even than his brother. Pity, really...

[Gurn Blanston]

The Mass in Salzburg – Early 1770's
Salzburg! What a wealth of riches for the music lover. Known as a center for the arts for centuries before the time that we are interested in, by the 1770's it was its own little inland empire.

In fact, the wealth is so diverse that one can scarcely know where to start. In the period when Prince-Archbishop Sigismundo von Schrattenbach was still alive, there was not yet any sign on the horizon of the liturgical reforms which would stifle creativity from the late 1770's until the early 1790's. True, it can (and should) be said that the restrictions called on the ingenuity of the composers to make the most from the least auspicious potential. But the all-out wonderment that greeted even the most humble churchgoer was now a thing of the past.

Michael Haydn, younger brother of Joseph and true specialist in sacred music, was installed in Salzburg by Schrattenbach by August, 1763. His music was already well known throughout the region and widely distributed through the churches and abbeys from Bavaria to Romania. He succeeded J.E. Eberlin, yet another well known specialist in sacred music.

Also, just returned from their Grand Tour of Western Europe and England were the Mozart Family, Vice-Kapellmeister Leopold and child sensation Wolfgang. Within a few short years, Wolfgang was to be a star, but for now, he lent a bit of genius to a musical establishment that, at the top, at least, was way more than competent.

One thing that persisted in the church music tradition was the fact that the Ruling House owned all the music that was produced for it by its minions. For this reason, even in the 1770's, the music of previous generations was still played. So the organ and trumpet music of Heinrich Biber, Kapellmeister in the late 17th century, and Eberlin from the early 18th century, was still heard and appreciated. Other names with a strong Salzburg tradition were Georg Muffat and his son Gottlieb, who went on to become the Imperial Organist in Vienna after a long apprenticeship in Salzburg. On the down side, a lot of the music played during masses by these organists was extemporized, and as a result, very little of it survives due to not being written down. However, there is some; Eberlin wrote and published a set of 9 Toccatas & Fugues which exist in a couple of nice recorded versions. And Muffat the Younger also left a few surviving toccatas.

The Viennese practice of working a concerto into a mass was less prevalent in Salzburg (if it was used at all). And the use of symphonies didn't seem to bloom until after the Reform, where there are at least three in succession by Michael Haydn with fugal finales which are believed to be church symphonies. It is also suggested that some of Mozart's symphonies, especially 27-30 of 1774, were written as church symphonies, but found life beyond that in later years. What Salzburg DID have were Epistle Sonatas. There are 17 surviving examples by Mozart, 15 of them written for the church combination of instruments which includes 2 violins, basso continuo (cello or double bass and organ) and, in the later ones, organ obbligato. It was these works, about which Mozart wrote to Padre Martini in Italy 1776 that 'the entire mass with the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Epistle Sonata, Offertory or Motet, Sanctus and Agnus Dei must last no longer than ¾ hour'. So despite the fact that there are few surviving examples, it can be seen that this form was considered to be a standard, integral part of the mass.

One should also keep in mind a couple of other things; by 1776, Schrattenbach was long dead and his successor, Colleredo, was no slouch when it came to reforming ala Joseph. He beat Joseph to the punch in the case of liturgical reform, instituting his around 1775. The other thing that I find interesting is that in reality, Colleredo didn't really intend his reforms for Salzburg Cathedral as much as he did for the various parish churches, where the weaker-minded poor folk would be distracted by too much grandeur. So, at least on feast days, the celebrations in Salzburg would have been considered to be pretty elegant by today's standards!

The next installment will have my first attempt at a recreation of a Salzburg festive mass. Lots of choices to make, and especially a lot of details to get right. In looking at the possibilities, I think there must have been a person whose job it was to keep straight the proper Proper's, and not to allow confusing even the ordinary Ordinary's..... 

Suggestions/corrections/comments are very welcome.

[Leo K.]

A very pleasing essay Gurn, a wonderful text to read while on break at work, helping me to forget work (if only for a moment!)

Thanks

Looking forward to your reconstruction. I am soaking in your essays, so I can respond in more detail

[Gurn Blanston]

A very pleasing essay Gurn, a wonderful text to read while on break at work, helping me to forget work (if only for a moment!)

Thanks

Looking forward to your reconstruction. I am soaking in your essays, so I can respond in more detail

Thanks, Leo. I've been looking forward to Salzburg for quite a while now, trying to find just the right works for this. Hopefully I will have learned from earlier efforts and this one will be super!