1950 to 2000

[Mirror Image]

This reminded me to put this up on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/yfVnazeA3zw
Someone had something similar a while back, but I can't find it anymore.
I listened to the Lutoslawski "Piano Concerto" twice. I really enjoyed it! I'll check out his cello concerto just to see what it's about. If it is anything like Ligeti's, I probably won't like it much. I never really understood or connected at all with Ligeti's "Cello Concerto". Hardly a concerto, except for maybe the second half of the second movement.

Check out Lutoslawski's vocal works with orchestra at some point. These are highly enjoyable with just unbelievable orchestration. Also, check out his symphonies, especially Symphonies 3 & 4. I agree with you about Ligeti's Cello Concerto, I prefer his Violin Concerto and Piano Concerto. Now, those are two outstanding pieces.

[EigenUser]

Check out Lutoslawski's vocal works with orchestra at some point. These are highly enjoyable with just unbelievable orchestration. Also, check out his symphonies, especially Symphonies 3 & 4. I agree with you about Ligeti's Cello Concerto, I prefer his Violin Concerto and Piano Concerto. Now, those are two outstanding pieces.

Actually, it is reminding me a lot of Ligeti's cello concerto with those random-sounding grace-note cadenzas. I don't get it.

Yes, I love the Ligeti concertos for violin and piano -- and the later "Hamburg" horn one as well! The third movement of the horn concerto has such a fun sound to it. Reminds me of a slowed-down version of the etude "Fanfares".

[Ken B]

Testing

[Ken B]

Testing

[Mirror Image]

Actually, it is reminding me a lot of Ligeti's cello concerto with those random-sounding grace-note cadenzas. I don't get it.

Yes, I love the Ligeti concertos for violin and piano -- and the later "Hamburg" horn one as well! The third movement of the horn concerto has such a fun sound to it. Reminds me of a slowed-down version of the etude "Fanfares".

Yeah, I never cared for Lutoslawski's Cello Concerto. Check out his Dance Preludes sometime for some good, old-fashioned folk-influenced Polish kielbasa.

[EigenUser]

He did. See Gruppen for starts, the listening public are surrounded by 3 large orchestras which converse, pass around, swirl and ricochet music around them. Of course, you'd have experience this one live. He is the pioneer composer of surround sound and no one really rivals him regarding the use of time & space in music .. and his output is loaded with pieces of all sorts that are precisely designed structurally around the listening public & beyond, he explores so many possibilities. Read: STOCKHAUSEN & THE SERIAL SHAPING OF SPACE

See also:

"In the 1950s, the German composer Karlheinz Stockhausen experimented with and produced ground-breaking electronic compositions such as Gesang der Jünglinge and Kontakte, the latter using fully discrete and rotating quadraphonic sounds generated with industrial electronic equipment in Herbert Eimert's studio at the Westdeutscher Rundfunk (WDR)." - Surround-sound

"Octophonic sound is a form of audio reproduction that presents eight discrete audio channels using eight speakers. For playback, the speakers may be positioned in a circle around the listeners or in any other configuration. "Typical arrangements are eight spaced on a circle by 45° (oriented with first speaker 0° or at 22.5°), or the vertices of a cube to bring in a double quadraphonic set-up with elevation" (Collins 2010, 60). In reference to his own work, Karlheinz Stockhausen made a distinction between these two forms, reserving the term "octophonic" for the arrangement in a cube, as found in his Oktophonie and the electronic music for scene 2 and the Farewell of Mittwoch aus Licht, and using the expression "eight-channel sound" for the circular arrangement, as used in Sirius, Unsichtbare Chöre, or Hours 13 to 21 of the Klang cycle (Stockhausen 1993, 150; Stockhausen 2000, 60). While quadraphonic sound uses four speakers positioned in a square at the four corners of the listening space (either on the ground or raised above the listeners), this cubical kind of octophonic spatialization allows not only front-back and left-right "surround sound", but also up-down and diagonal movements—a 3D spatialization of sound. In order for such movement in space to be heard, it is necessary that rhythms be slow, and pitches change mainly in small steps or in glissandos (Stockhausen 1993, 151, 163)." - Octophonic-sound

Spatial music is composed music that intentionally exploits sound localization. Though present in Western music from biblical times in the form of the antiphon, as a component specific to new musical techniques the concept of spatial music (Raummusik, usually translated as "space music") was introduced as early as 1928 in Germany. The term spatialisation is connected especially with electroacoustic music to denote the projection and localization of sound sources in physical or virtual space or sound's spatial movement in space. Karlheinz Stockhausen's Helicopter String Quartet (1992–93/95) is arguably the most extreme experiment involving the spatial motility of live performers. - Spatial Music

Acoustical engineering (also known as Acoustic Engineering) is the branch of engineering dealing with sound and vibration. It is the application of acoustics, the science of sound and vibration, in technology. Acoustical engineers are typically concerned with the design, analysis and control of sound. It can cover the programming of digital sound Synthesizers, designing a concert hall's acoustics to enhance sound, noise control, the design of headphones, microphones, loudspeakers, sound systems, sound reproduction and recording, computer analysis of music and composition, how sounds employed as music work, the function and design of musical instruments including electronic synthesizers, the human voice (the physics and neurophysiology of singing) etc. - Acoustical Engineering

I've heard "Gruppen" a few times. I'd love to see it live for spectacle, but I really don't like it. It has that academic "serial" sound that I associate with the "Klavierstuck" as well as many works by Boulez and Babbitt (less academic than the latter two composers, but still). I don't doubt the brilliance that went into writing it, though, and it's probably great fun to analyze and decipher patterns in the score. If "Cosmic Pulses" is a serial work (which I doubt), I couldn't tell. I didn't care for the synthesized sound, but the beginning of it reminds me of the beginning of Penderecki's "The Awakening of Jacob", a work that I like a lot.

Yeah, I never cared for Lutoslawski's Cello Concerto. Check out his Dance Preludes sometime for some good, old-fashioned folk-influenced Polish kielbasa.

This one sounds like it's in the same category as "Romanian Folk Dances" and "Concert Romanesc"; especially the latter. Speaking of composers and texture, how do you feel about the Ades "Asyla"? I think it has some great atmospheric slow writing in the slower sections (bass oboe!). And that 3rd movement -- flashing, colored lights!

[Mirror Image]

This one sounds like it's in the same category as "Romanian Folk Dances" and "Concert Romanesc"; especially the latter. Speaking of composers and texture, how do you feel about the Ades "Asyla"? I think it has some great atmospheric slow writing in the slower sections (bass oboe!). And that 3rd movement -- flashing, colored lights!

I like Ades well enough. I haven't listened to any of his music for quite some time, though. I remember enjoying Tevot a good bit.

[amw]

Gruppen is just an iconic example and must be experienced live for the full musical effect. This stuff may seem academic at first but it really is not, it is highly imaginative, expressive and artistic - totally outside the box, and pushing boundaries. A work like it had never been done before.

I'm not 100% sure about that... this is a possible antecedent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5PvslbFjIzU#t=158

[amw]

Huh?

3 separate mini-orchestras, each playing in its own meter. Not the most obvious in this production possibly, but it makes sense when you see it. Listen to/watch a few Giovannis.

[amw]

Whatever.

When I first heard Gruppen I was reminded of that bit in Don Giovanni and also Ives's 4th which has one main orchestra (though with two conductors) and then an independent percussion group that does its own thing and a heavenly choir of violins and harps in the balcony. And another Ives piece with a few sets of tubular chimes surrounding the audience. And Henry Brant who may or may not have preceded Stockhausen in spatial music, I'm not certain of the timeline.

Of course there's never been anything totally new in music, every innovation builds on the past in some way.

[Ken B]

Whatever.

When I first heard Gruppen I was reminded of that bit in Don Giovanni and also Ives's 4th which has one main orchestra (though with two conductors) and then an independent percussion group that does its own thing and a heavenly choir of violins and harps in the balcony. And another Ives piece with a few sets of tubular chimes surrounding the audience. And Henry Brant who may or may not have preceded Stockhausen in spatial music, I'm not certain of the timeline.

Of course there's never been anything totally new in music, every innovation builds on the past in some way.

Antiphonal music goes back a long way. Gabrieli and Monteverdi, but even earlier. Hockets. I expect even back to Machaut.

[Ken B]

Seems like you're not really listening to the music at all.

Outside of Stockhausen's own work there isn't anything quite like Gruppen.

Really?

Is the use of multiple independent orchestras integral to the conception of Gruppen, or just window dressing? If it's integral then anw is right. If it's window dressing then why the hype? You can't have it both ways; pick your poison.

[Mirror Image]

Really?

Is the use of multiple independent orchestras integral to the conception of Gruppen, or just window dressing? If it's integral then anw is right. If it's window dressing then why the hype? You can't have it both ways; pick your poison.

Don't give in, just don't give in. Once you get into an argument with James, you're more likely than not going to find yourself talking to a brick wall instead of a human being who's capable of any kind of rationalization. Just a fair warning.

[Ken B]

Don't give in, just don't give in. Once you get into an argument with James, you're more likely than not going to find yourself talking to a brick wall instead of a human being who's capable of any kind of rationalization. Just a fair warning.

Well I'll give in if he gives me a reason to. Ignoring my question isn't much of a start. Nor is "this is the greatest and most perfect innovation in the history of music vastly greater than anything that came before" . And in a thread where Machaut has already been mentioned.

[some guy]

It's not the best wiki article in the world, but this bit seems OK. Far as I know.

"Beginning with the 1953 score Rural Antiphonies (predating Stockhausen's Gruppen of 1955-57), Brant developed the concept of spatial music, in which the location of instruments and/or voices in physical space is a significant compositional element. He identified the origins of the concept in the antiphonal music of the late renaissance and early baroque, in the antiphonal use of four brass ensembles placed in the corners of the stage in the Requiem of Hector Berlioz and, most importantly, in works of Charles Ives, in particular The Unanswered Question."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Brant)

[amw]

Speaking of Brant, here's about 4 hours of his music that's never been released on CD:

https://soundcloud.com/innovadotmu/sets/henry-brant-centenary

Some interesting music there from a composer who deserves to be much better known (but seems to have been overlooked due to the difficulty in fitting him into any historiographical narrative of the 20th century. That and being Canadian)

[Ken B]

I never ignored your idiotic question. The earlier music you mention has very little to do with what Stockhausen was doing.

John, I am sorry I doubted you.
James, thanks for living down to what People say about you. Simpler that way.

[Mirror Image]

John, I am sorry I doubted you.
James, thanks for living down to what People say about you. Simpler that way.

No problem, Ken.

[Ken B]

Thanks for posting this. Now I know why this guy is a nobody.

Be sure to check out the video of the piece on the previous page to understand perhaps what I have been saying since the beginning. I also provided a few additional links that seem OK and will sort out your confusion, but I highly doubt it.

I'm not confused James, I'm bored. You're a zero trick pony.

[amw]

Galina Ustvolskaya - Grand Duet (1964) - Rostropovich/Lubimov

http://www.youtube.com/v/jTTQNM6u8yY

Different music suits my mood at different times; and right now, after a few days of listening to Gulda playing Beethoven and Sinopoli playing Maderna, something about this piece really appeals to me right now. It's hard to say what.