PI Beethoven 5 and 7 from Gardiner

[Reverend Bong]

Presto's latest email has an interesting looking recording of the 5th and 7th by John Eliot Gardiner and the ORR.  Has anyone heard this yet? 



http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/SDG/SDG717

[North Star]

Gardiner's Beethoven cycle is quite old already, from the early 90s, AFAIK.
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[mszczuj]

Gardiner's Beethoven cycle is quite old already, from the early 90s, AFAIK.

But this is the completely new recording.

[Reverend Bong]

But this is the completely new recording.

Yes, it's the new one I was asking about.  It was a live recording made in Carnegie Hall in November last year, just released this month on CD.

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/15/142340577/john-eliot-gardiners-historical-beethoven

[North Star]

But this is the completely new recording.

Perhaps I should have opened the link...
Shall be interesting to know how Gardiner's approach has changed, if it has.

[Reverend Bong]

I'm interested, having heard him doing Beethoven recently in London.  There was a vivacity about the performance I saw, coupled with the (to me) unfamilar textures of period instruments that made it really fresh to my ears.  On the other hand, I no longer know how many recordings of the 7th I have and I couldn't really tell you what they were or whether I had heard them all.  I am trying to avoid becoming a mad completist like my brother, plus I have just splashed out nearly £50 on the box set of Furtwangler's RIAS recordings which includes two more of the 5th and I think 2 more of the 7th in it....

[Scarpia]

Among PI Beethoven, Immerseel seems to generate more enthusiasm these days than Gardiner.  I think this is one to hear.

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[Wakefield]

Among PI Beethoven, Immerseel seems to generate more enthusiasm these days than Gardiner.  I think this is one to hear.

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It's right, but in my experience second tries and live recordings are two features very favorable to Gardiner.

[Scarpia]

It's right, but in my experience second tries and live recordings are two features very favorable to Gardiner.

Swing and a miss on the first pitch gives him a better chance the second time around?   

[San Antone]

Yes, it's the new one I was asking about.  It was a live recording made in Carnegie Hall in November last year, just released this month on CD.

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/15/142340577/john-eliot-gardiners-historical-beethoven

Good news.  Thanks for the information.

[San Antone]

Swing and a miss on the first pitch gives him a better chance the second time around?   

I am not sure why you consider Gardiner's Beethoven set a "miss" - here's part of what HC Robbins Landon wrote in his review when the set was released:

On all accounts, therefore, this set is a triumph and certainly the most important Beethoven recording since the arrival of CD: important for getting the texts right (something we now regard as obvious in Haydn's and Mozart's symphonies); important for the revelatory sound of these original instruments; and especially important for the clean, unsentimental, brilliant readings by Gardiner and his orchestra. Not least, DG has given us a marvellously rounded, yet detailed sound, despite the fact that the nine symphonies were recorded at different times and places. Never was the advent of CD more triumphantly vindicated.
Performance: 5 (out of 5); Sound: 5 (out of 5)

-- HC Robbins Landon, BBC Music Magazine [1994] Reviewing DG 439-900

[Scarpia]

I am not sure why you consider Gardiner's Beethoven set a "miss" - here's part of what HC Robbins Landon wrote in his review when the set was released:

No reason, except that I did not particularly enjoy what I have heard of the cycle, and I didn't understand the logic that the fact that it was a second recording was a plus.

[DavidRoss]

Gardiner and Immerseel are both fine if you want tame, genteel, HIPPI Beethoven symphonies unlikely to disturb the bridge game at the country club. But for something more likely to make the blue hairs sit up and take notice, try:



Long OOP but I've seen (here somewhere?) that it's scheduled for reissue.

In the meantime, they've just issued a new cycle recorded live last year:

[Scarpia]

Gardiner and Immerseel are both fine if you want tame, genteel, HIPPI Beethoven symphonies unlikely to disturb the bridge game at the country club. But ...

Immerseel, tame?  Are we listening to the same recording?  I'd characterize Immerseel's Beethoven 4, 5, 7 as the most intense I've heard.   I'd be happy to hear the Bruggens Beethoven set, but I've looked and it has not been available.

[San Antone]

Gardiner and Immerseel are both fine if you want tame, genteel, HIPPI Beethoven symphonies unlikely to disturb the bridge game at the country club. But for something more likely to make the blue hairs sit up and take notice, try:

Long OOP but I've seen (here somewhere?) that it's scheduled for reissue.

In the meantime, they've just issued a new cycle recorded live last year:

Yes, I was going to suggest Bruggen's set.  That is good news about a reissue, although Arkiv Music offers the set as one of their CD reproductions.  Have you heard his recent set?   

I don't share your characterization of Gardiner and Immerseel  as being overly "tame" - I have heard that description applied to Hogwood's in comparison to the other two, although I would not say that about his performances either.   But for the wet Nimbus sound, I would spin Goodman's set much more often.

As for MI recordings, I like Szell best.

[Scarpia]

As for MI recordings, I like Szell best.

Astonishing how few of Szell's Columbia recordings are available (last time I looked, anyway).

[Wakefield]

No reason, except that I did not particularly enjoy what I have heard of the cycle, and I didn't understand the logic that the fact that it was a second recording was a plus.

Sorry, Scarpia, but I wasn't referring any kind of logical principle. I was simply thinking of his Bach recordings: for instance, quite frequently his Pilgrimage on SDG (recorded live and with many cantatas recorded for second time) is superior to his previous effort on Archiv (where he recorded not less than 11 discs or something so). That's all. 

[mszczuj]

My ranking of complete PI performances for today is:

1. Goodman/Hugget - Absolutely the best set. Especially 1,3,5,6, 7 which are absolutely the best I ever heard. Listening to ithem is like reading thr tphilosophical treatise. This is exactly what I think how Beethoven's orchestra should sound (as if it was not symphony but triple orchestra concerto for strings, harmony and brass with timpani).  Alas it probably sounds much worse on some other equipment. I suppose so because there is a lot of rcomplaints about this sound (I use old Grundig from 1980-es and have all the walls of my room filled with books and LPs so I have no problem of reverb.) I don't like the second theme of the 1st movement of the 2nd Symphony. Absolutely superb in Scherzo of the 9th - they play here like a rock big band - as if all the musicians played from their own energy not just what conductor wants. (There is the absolutely best ever Missa Solemnis with The Hanover Band and Oslo Cathedral Choir conducted by Terje Kvam as well)

2. Immerseel - Good, but too calm. Something like chamber music. I like chamber music but Beethoven symphonies are not chamber music.

3. old Bruggen - don't like 3rd which is not waltzing at all, only marching in the 1st movement. Probably the  best 2nd symphony.

4. Hogwood - I was very disappointed when heard it for the first time. When I heard it two years ago I find it acceptable.

5. Gardiner - the same description as Hogwood.

6. Norrington - for me rather pale but very inspired Final of the 6th.

Didn't hear Krivine and new Bruggen yet.

My favorite MI are so far Kletzki and Paavo Jarvi,  I like Liverpool  Mackerras, Scottish Mackerras, last Haitink (but I havent heard  any earlier and was very fond of his Piano Concertos with Arrau), Harnoncourt, Chailly. I have heard only some fragments of Leibowitz, but was very fond of it.)

Not bad were for me Krips, and Blomsted (but I have listened only some of his interpretations).

Acceptable were for me Karajan 62', Konwitschny, Masur, Suitner, and Solti (but I have heard only 5th and 9th of him)

Never heard Kubelik, Szell, Bohm, Cluytens.

Have heard some Walter, Klemperer, Reiner.

Don't like two Bernstein 5th. I have seen once his 1st. His acting, mimics, gestures were perfectly adequate to my understanding of this music - alas it sounded nothing like that.

The absolutely worst are Toscanini and Furtwangler.

[DavidW]

I think that Bruggen is the best PI set out there.  Immerseel is good but a little reserved.  Hogwood is flexible in his approach and I enjoy him a lot.  Gardiner I don't care for.  Norrington when I first heard it I thought was too aggressive, I would like to revisit him now that I've gained an appreciation for PI.

I've heard Bruggen the naughty way, I would like to see any set of his back in print for legal purchasing.  I also enjoy his Schubert set, which I find to the best of all Schubert symphony sets.

My favorite MI set is Harnoncourt.

[San Antone]

I posted this earlier in a longer post and it may not have been seen, but Arkiv Music offers the Bruggen set as a CDR.

Krivine was mentioned.  I have that one but nothing sticks out in my mind; I should go back and listen to it again.

I don't understand the tepid response to Gardiner, but such is taste; I find it very good.