Blind Comparison: Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique

[mc ukrneal]

I don't think Johan is. But I'll PM S.John (in case he doesn't read this post).

Great results so far for the final. I knew that the diversity in the five movements of fantastique would cause for interesting votes, or splitting of votes as we progressed through the movements. Where some recordings may succeed in the finale, it may lack in the Rêveries – Passions or Un bal.

Hopefully we can post the results by the end of the weekend.

Once again, thank you all for participating in this (GMG's longest lasting) comparison. 

Any news on when the results will be posted? No biggie either way, just curious.

[TheGSMoeller]

It's possible it could be tonight, Neal.

[TheGSMoeller]

FINAL RESULTS

Four of the recordings in the finale here were in the top five of vote getters after round 1 results, (the ousted loser was Gergiev), so these five were consistently appreciated throughout the comparison. But after reading the comments, you would think that C5 should have been eliminated earlier. Another very interesting stat, is that of the five finalist, the most recently recorded performance was in 1974.
Enough jibba-jabber, to the results!



5) C5 - New Philharmonia/ Stokowski (1968)



"and the speed is all over the place, especially when dies irae is stated by the tubas..."

"it generates the insane excitement, especially in the March and The Finale."

"I don't think it belongs among the finalists"

"A parody more than an interpretation."


Despite receiving the most mixed reviews of the final five, it achieved something that the likes of Rattle, Tilson-Thomas and Bernstein couldn't...make it to finals! (trust me, this is big, people are watching this, important people) Anyway, too much Stokowski might have been the dagger, but then again, too much Stokowski is what got it this far.




4) C4 - CSO/Solti (1972) 




"Adequate but coarse recording."

"I have to grudgingly admit that this is a really good reading [of the] finale"

"I really admired the conductor and the clarity with which he got his vision of the piece across. "

"This is generally a competent, decently played performance of no particular distinction."


Solti and CSO seemed to narrowly squeeze into the finale, which was nice for me to see considering this is the recording I grew up with, and was my initial introduction to fantastique. This one might have survived solely on the fiery performance of the final two movements. Solti did make another SF with CSO in 1992, but this two decade older one is superior.



WE HAVE A TIE! (for 2nd place)




T-2) A4 - Detroit SO/Paray (1959) 



"... this one is outstanding in every sense...The question is whether this unremittingly 'driven' approach, across all five movements, really works."

"Overall, a thrill-seeking, adventurous, truly wild account, where some of the flash is impaired by the old sound quality"

"Sure it's exciting but also manic and exhausting with little contrast."

"Very good...well worth a third listen."


Paray's account was actually in first place after the opening round, and by a good amount of votes. Perhaps hearing the swifter tempi of this performance span the five movements pushed it back a bit (although in Sarge's case, getting through Scene aux champs faster was a plus). But there was still no question that it's a dazzling display.





T-2) C2 - Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam/Davis (1974) 



"Yeah, the finale by itself would score a 10; the rest of the symphony is a mere 6.5."

"a syrupy dreamlike Fantastique; more lovingly done than the others but lacking the punch of the other four."

"A  "classic" interpretation, sonically superb, and brilliantly executed by the orchestra."

"The phrasing and tempo was well-judged,"


Sir Colin Davis, to many, is the quintessential Berlioz conductor, and this fantastique can seen as a benchmark. Shouldn't really surprise anyone that it made it this far.





And the winner, by a large margin, of the Symphonie Fantastique blind comparison...


1) B2 - Orchestre Nationale l'ORTF/Martinon (1973) 



"very unique, especially in brass section, probably old French Orchestra, very authentic "

"resplendent.  opulent in the extreme!"

"...it lets the music itself shine through without too much interference."

"The third movement drew me in slowly, the strings taught and pulling you left and right just before you get beaten down with the superb brass again."


French composer. French conductor. French orchestra. Could this comparison have really ended any other way. 





I want to send a big thank you to all those that participated. And to Daniel, who always does a great job with these comparisons!

[MishaK]

Hey! I'm glad Solti/CSO made it into the finale, too. It was likewise my intro to the piece. Used to love it until I learned more about what could be achieved in the realm of orchestral color. And Solti doesn't do color. Thanks for setting this up.

[aukhawk]

French composer. French conductor. French orchestra. Could this comparison have really ended any other way. 

After all the ups and downs, that is rather remarkable.
And after demonstrating our collective lack of taste (kicking out Bernstein et al) - a bit of a relief!! 

Thankyou Greg and Daniel, great game.

[mc ukrneal]

Interesting results. Using Discoble's methodology (no bearing, perhaps of interest though), A4 would have been #2 and C2 would have been #3.

Thanks for putting this together guys! Well done!

[trung224]

   Great results. Many thanks to Daniel and Greg. I am fond of Colin Davis and Paray, but Tilson Thomas's, Stokowski's, and Martinon's accounts really opened my eye to this piece again.

[AnthonyAthletic]

Greg...Daniel : Well I couldn't believe it when the results came up...I totally disregarded one of my favourite Fantastiques, the 1974 Amsterdam Davis version!!  I had it last of the five and knew I was about to place a much loved version last DOH.

The Paray & Solti were new recordings for me 'first time of hearing' thanks to the Comparison. I do however have the Stokowski box set and should have recognised that one, but did not, it has been a while since playing that set.  I did like the vulgarness and difference he brought to the symphony and realised who it was when reading Sarge's comments akin to 'fiddling' with scores!!.  I think I will give it a spin this evening.

Thanks to both of you....are you doing another work soon?  Any ideas on which?

[MishaK]

I'd actually urge everyone to get a hold of the score and follow along with the Davis one more time and pay especially close attention to the orchestration. Berlioz was an orchestrator like no other before or after. There are moments like the very first introduction of the idée fixe in the first movement where solo flute is playing unisono with the violins, the violin/flute blend of the main theme after the rand des vaches in the scène aux champs, or the blend of winds at the opening of the marche au supplice, or the tuba (ophicleide)/bassoon blend in the dies irae, etc. etc. Davis just "gets" this. There is a unique set of colors here (thanks in no small part to the peak Haitink-era RCO!) that nobody else has. Martinon is good, thanks to the "native" proficiency of the band, but not quite on the level of Davis in this respect, plus Martinon is a bit more "academic" in his interpretation. The others are on a different planet. To me this is just one of the very essential aspects of Berlioz's revolutionary musical language. If it is absent, I can't get myself to care much about how "exciting" the final movement might be or how great some other interpretive twist or turn has been executed.

[TheGSMoeller]

Great post, MishaK.

[Daverz]

Arrrgh, the Martinon is $34 new at Amazon?  What bullshit is this?

Ahhh, much better:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/berlioz-symphonie-fantastique-lelio-orchestre-jean-martinon-emi-gemini-2cds.html

...and for the best price of all, I found it in the TV stand.  Apparently I didn't get around to ripping it.

All the recordings in the test:

18) A6 Boulez/Cleveland Orchestra 1997 (5% of possible votes)
17) A3 Norrington/London Classical Players 1989 (20%)
16) B3 Munch/Boston Symphony Orchestra 1954 (24%)
15) B5 Minkowski/Mahler Chamber Orchestra, Les Musiciens du Louvre members 2004 (24%)
14) C1 Ticciati/Scottish Chamber Orchestra 2012 (35%)
13) C6 Abbado/Chicago Symphony Orchestra 1984 (40%)
12) B1 Semyon Bychkov/Orchestra de Paris (1994)
11) B6 Christoph von Dohnányi/Cleveland Orchestra (1991)
10) C3 Jos van Immerseel/Anima Eterna (2010)
9) B4 Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (1963)
8 ) A2 Valery Gergiev/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (2003)
7) A5 Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (2009)
6) A1 Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Symphony Orchestra (1998)
5) C5 - New Philharmonia/ Stokowski (1968)
4) C4 - CSO/Solti (1972)
T-2) A4 - Detroit SO/Paray (1959)
T-2) C2 - Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam/Davis (1974)
1) B2 - Orchestre Nationale l'ORTF/Martinon (1973)

Though Bernstein did not make the cut, I'll note that two Bernstein recordings went unconsidered: the 1968 NYP* and the EMI with the French National Orchestra.

Also, perhaps the 1962 Munch recording might have fared better?

I'm surprised at the the Martinon made 1st place, as I don't think I've ever seen it on anyone's short list.

And too bad that room couldn't be found for the Muti recording.

*This is the one that originally included the "Berlioz Takes a Trip" lecture.  Note that Sony consistently mislabeled the 1963 recording as 1968.  The only CD issue of the 1968 recording was in the "Great Performances" series from the pre-Sony CBS era. 

[MishaK]

And too bad that room couldn't be found for the Muti recording.

Meh... another rather glossy and bland reading. Heard Muti do that here in Chicago in his opening season, sounded exactly the same.

I almost started listing a bunch more that I though ought to have been considered, but then I had another idea: why not another few rounds?  Are people fantastiqued out? Or do you want more? I have a whole bunch of fantastiques with several OOP and some totally out of left field. If you're curious (and if GSMoeller tells me how he did the file conversions and uploads), I'd be more than happy to host the next (few) rounds.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on 02-03-2013, 15:09:31

Do the moderators know if Scots John and Johan are going to vote?

Sarge

No, I haven't. Due to work I had to quit. I find the results hugely interesting, by the way. You all did a very good job!

[TheGSMoeller]

Meh... another rather glossy and bland reading. Heard Muti do that here in Chicago in his opening season, sounded exactly the same.

I almost started listing a bunch more that I though ought to have been considered, but then I had another idea: why not another few rounds?  Are people fantastiqued out? Or do you want more? I have a whole bunch of fantastiques with several OOP and some totally out of left field. If you're curious (and if GSMoeller tells me how he did the file conversions and uploads), I'd be more than happy to host the next (few) rounds.

There are many recordings that were left out for sure, and the reason I didn't participate was because I provided maybe 12 of the recordings so I wouldn't have been able to play fair.

I definitely would be a part of the next comparison, whether it's Berlioz SF or something else. Of course a new SF would exclude all the recordings I own so it would be new to me.

[Daverz]

Meh... another rather glossy and bland reading. Heard Muti do that here in Chicago in his opening season, sounded exactly the same.

I almost started listing a bunch more that I though ought to have been considered, but then I had another idea: why not another few rounds?  Are people fantastiqued out? Or do you want more? I have a whole bunch of fantastiques with several OOP and some totally out of left field. If you're curious (and if GSMoeller tells me how he did the file conversions and uploads), I'd be more than happy to host the next (few) rounds.

I have some sympathy for those who participated.  I downloaded the first round, listened for a few minutes, and then decided it wasn't something I wanted to do with my time.  Completely MIA.

Other recordings not considered:

Beecham (2 recordings, the mono is usually considered superior to the stereo recording)
Markevitch (2 recordings, mono vs. stereo again)
Klemperer (yes!)
Davis's first recording with the LSO
Mitropoulos (understandable, as there hasn't been a[n official] CD issue until recently)

[madaboutmahler]

Great as always to read your feedback, and to see that you have enjoyed the comparison. I have enjoyed organizing it very much too, and Greg, thank you for all your help!

My two favourites throughout were Paray and Martinon, so I am pleased they came in the top positions!

Brian is doing a Gaspard comparison next, which he tells me will hopefully be ready in around 2 weeks. After that, I shall hope to start the next Mahler symphony comparison, which is yet to be revealed.

[TheGSMoeller]

I have some sympathy for those who participated.

No need, we had fun! 

[aukhawk]

(and if GSMoeller tells me how he did the file conversions and uploads), ...

I can imagine the process is bound to damage the SQ, and will probably affect some recordings more than others, depending on how each one has been sourced.  No criticism - that's just the way it is.
I was down on the SQ of A4 (Paray, as it turned out) especially in the first movement, and would have placed it higher if I'd been confident about the sound on the original.  Well now - a Mercury recording of that vintage - generally sound doesn't get much better than that, IMO - I'm going to have to download at least one movement from Amazon just to check it out!!  The waltz, I think 

[NJ Joe]

Great thread! I grabbed a used copy of the Martinon on Amazon for $4.20. Received word it shipped this morning. Can't wait to hear it.

[mjwal]

I've been following this with great pleasure as a lazy non-participant. I've had the Martinon on a cassette for ages (pre-CD); I haven't listened for a while, but do not recall it having quite the pizzazz of the Paray, which was new to me: tremendous sound and performance! I think it's a pity that the Markevitch and Van Otterloo BPO, Mitropoulos NYPO and Boulez LSO (probably unavailable) recordings and at least one by Monteux were not considered, but you can't have everything. My dream: a Mengelberg CO performance recorded in state of the art sound by some aesthetically minded time-traveller, who could have caught the Oskar Fried performance on the wing too - instead of the distorted recording we have (both that and the Van Otterloo are on YouTube I see, where there is also a live Cluytens - oh, those French horns).