Is classical music merely self-aggrandizing?

[Que]

There is an old Romanian saying that reads: A fool throws a stone in the water and ten wise men can't take it out.  

Now that's a true word.
Florestan, I shall remember that one!

Q

[Michel]

Another thought occurs (based on Topaz's nice bit of investigation): Does not one publically quote philosophical ideas as an act of mere self-aggrandising? After all, the masses don't read Hegel or Feuerbach. So how much cleverer than they do we look when we espouse the thinking of such thinkers?

Why must people keep accusing me of self-aggrandizing? I've already admitted to it, but you lot can't.

[Mark]

Why must people keep accusing me of self-aggrandizing? I've already admitted to it, but you lot can't.

Now you consider 'we' to mean 'I' (or you, in this case)?

I think what we have here is a dead-end discussion, fascinating though it might be. We are humans. Humans generally have egos developed to a greater or lesser extent. To that end, most will identify with their egos, and will want to project an appearance of themselves to others that favours whatever outcome they desire (for whatever reason). If they wish to appear clever, then classical music may well play a part in the creation of the appearance they want to project. That isn't the fault of the art form, but fault on the part of the person doing the projecting. Indeed, we're all projecting something all of the time - it's part of one's psychological make-up. To this end, we all self-aggrandise to a greater or lesser extent in some avenue or other of our lives. We don't need to make an example of classical music to prove this: just watch how people behave, what they say, and how their actions and speech will alter depending on the outcome they desire. All you've really done by starting this thread is (as you acknowledge) project something of your ego for others to see. And in responding to your OP, we have all done likewise. But then, what else did you expect?

[lukeottevanger]

[Paul, you ought to change the thread title to something along the lines above. When I first saw it, I thought you meant that the music itself (or the aesthetic implied by the music) is self-aggrandizing - and sometimes it is of course. That's a whole other issue and one I find much more interesting, indeed, essential.*  Undoubtedly, though, it would make for a rather unpleasant thread on the Corkin model...]


*of course, the use of that 'essential', implying that I have something vitally important to say about the matter, is probably self-aggrandizing in its own way**
** and the self-mockery of this reference to self-aggrandisment ditto***
***and the honest of this reference to self-mockery ditto.****
**** etc. *****
***** which is to say that, whilst you may have a point, so does Mark in his last post - we are all slaves to the ego to some degree or other, and everything we write here, including the words I'm writing right now, is designed to project the image we want. I'm admitting that something I said above sounded a little self-aggrandizing; in so doing I'm trying to appear humble, but that itself is self-aggrandizing; in admitting that, I'm trying to appear honest, but that itself is self-aggrandizing. And so on and on. It never ends - so in the final analysis is not really something we can talk about, because in the act of talking about it, we just keep illustrating the basic issue. In fact, to me, this is why it actually isn't a very interesting issue, because it amounts to saying 'the way we say what we say tries to project the image we wish'.

There, that post ended up somewhere I didn't expect it to!

[Topaz]

It doesn't surprise me at all that we've been sucked into this thread. Perhaps by posting our thoughts and opinions here, we're merely self-aggrandising ...

One of the funniest situations I've ever seen on a music forum was an occasion when a new poster, in his post 1, asked for advice on how to set about composing his first Symphony, as he wasn't sure how many different instruments to cater for since he was new to the composing game.  It was obviously a joke, but this didn't stop about half the regulars taking it seriously and posting their considered advice on the subject (not including me). 

As for the posting of crap topics, there's one really big topic that hasn't hit this forum yet: the theory that Mozart and Haydn were complete fakes.  This one has done the rounds elsewhere.   I reckon that if the proponent of this view ever came here, the topic would take the world record for speed of response.  You guys here are, of course, far too smart to give it any house-room, so it may not last very long, but it would provide a lot of fun.  What would make it all the more interesting is that Corkin is one of this person's sympathisers. This debate was last acted out on Talk-Classical , but you won't see all of it because a lot of the dialogue was edited out by the Mods, as it got extremely "ad hom" towards the end.

[Michel]

[Paul, you ought to change the thread title to something along the lines above. When I first saw it, I thought you meant that the music itself (or the aesthetic implied by the music) is self-aggrandizing - and sometimes it is of course. That's a whole other issue and one I find much more interesting, indeed, essential.*  Undoubtedly, though, it would make for a rather unpleasant thread on the Corkin model...]


*of course, the use of that 'essential', implying that I have something vitally important to say about the matter, probably comes across as self-aggrandizing**
** and the self-mockery of this reference to self-aggrandisment ditto***
***etc.

Both, I think are interesting. I would suspect most people here don't have the originality of thought to enter an interesting discussion on whether the music itself is, which is, as you say, an important and fascinating question, and one which I know you would have some sympathy for (re certain composers), which we have discussed over the last few years.

Mark, I like your post, it is sensible and I think you've taken my point, which I appreciate. I suppose one thought I have is simply that it those here have it to a "greater extent".

[Michel]

One of the funniest situations I've ever seen on a music forum was an occasion when a new poster, in his post 1, asked for advice on how to set about composing his first Symphony, as he wasn't sure how many different instruments to cater for since he was new to the composing game.  It was obviously a joke, but this didn't stop about half the regulars taking it seriously and posting their considered advice on the subject (not including me). 

A well illustrated an relevant peice of testimony, thank you Topaz.

[Novi]

And as I said before, why do we not have these arguments over Metallica? The answer: because we put people like Scarlatti up in exalted towers and bow down to their "greatness", so we're not allowed to critisize them and must constantly search for profundities. Its pathetic. We are all, yet again, self-aggrandizing. What a bunch of deluded fools we are.

I don't know anything about Metallica, but what I do know is that I've never encountered greater snobbery than when I used to hang out with the progressive house crowd. The contempt for the 'mainstream' in those circles was by far more virulent than anything I've seen in classical fans. Mind you, aside from chatting to random fellow concert attendees, my experiences with classical lovers have largely been on this forum, so maybe we're just a particularly genial lot .

And incidentally, I've had some of my most 'spiritual' moments on the dancefloor with Nick Warren on the decks ...   

[karlhenning]

I still believe at lot of these comments are proving my point. Its laughable that we have now descended into a debate about whether or not Scarlatti is spiritual - what an absurd question!

It's only absurd if you have a hard-&-fast idea of how spiritual content maps onto musical content;  and it would be that dead-certainty which would be absurd.

I am perfectly serious that the D Major sonata I mentioned is no whit the less spiritual than a Bach chorale.  How could we try the matter?

[karlhenning]

One of the funniest situations I've ever seen on a music forum was an occasion when a new poster, in his post 1, asked for advice on how to set about composing his first Symphony, as he wasn't sure how many different instruments to cater for since he was new to the composing game.  It was obviously a joke . . . .

You're setting up the tale, so it's obvious to you (as you report it) that it is a joke.  (I don't recall any such post, so I could not opine one way or the other.)

But, it were perfectly possible for such a thing to happen, sincerely (a new poster asking for advice on how to set about composing his first Symphony in his first post).  In even the best case, yes, there is something touchingly naive about it.  But to dismiss it as "obviously a joke" says everything about how you are approaching the matter, and not necessarily the facts of the matter.

[karlhenning]

Why must people keep accusing me of self-aggrandizing? I've already admitted to it, but you lot can't.

Again, you are assuming that because it's true of you, it's true of everyone.

It may not be.  I, for one, do not believe it to be true of everyone.

You cannot expect people to "admit" to something which is not true for them.

[Michel]

Again, you are assuming that because it's true of you, it's true of everyone.

It may not be.  I, for one, do not believe it to be true of everyone.

You cannot expect people to "admit" to something which is not true for them.

But most people don't have the honesty with themselves to admit it, thats the problem.

[karlhenning]

But most people don't have the honesty with themselves to admit it, thats the problem.

My friend, again you are presupposing the character and quality of the honesty of others.

Why are you so exercised about the motes in the eyes of others? 

[mahlertitan]

But most people don't have the honesty with themselves to admit it, thats the problem.

you sound like you know whether somone is honest or not, as if you are some sort of superior being, well, tell me this, if i say that i watch TV 6 hours a day, am I lying? if i am lying, how do you know that i am lying?

[karlhenning]

There, that post ended up somewhere I didn't expect it to!

How can you self-aggrandize effectively, if you don't stick to plan? 

[Larry Rinkel]

But most people don't have the honesty with themselves to admit it, thats the problem.

But you have such honesty, of course, unlike the rest of us self-deluded fools.

[Topaz]

In my humble attempt to defuse slightly what Michel is saying, here is another version:

Version 2 by Topaz

In all seriousness, what goes through our head when we cruise around in our open-top Porsche 911 Carrera Turbo, or swank in our Porsche Cayenne as we try to find a parking space close to our favourite Knightsbridge store?

What do we get from it? How many of us drive these these hugely expensive machines merely because they reinforce our desired identity? (ie. someone very rich and with good taste in automobilia?) How many of us, if we are honest, can admit that, objectively, there is no difference between a Porsche and a Ford in terms of practical motoring, safety and comfort?  Clearly, it's only our subjective response to being seen in a Porsche and its connotations of affluence, above average driving skills, social standing, good taste.  Why, indeed, do we constantly thumb through up-market car magazines to contemplate even upgrading to more exotic machinery, when we could so easily chuck a few $'000 into a few charities and buy ourselves a Ford instead?  Oh yes indeed, why do we shun such lesser brands of motor vehicle and give Porsche such a monopoly over greatness, and why are we so forgiving of their lousy fuel consumption, and high pollution.  Why can we not slag Porsche off? We Porsche owners must be a right bunch of egotistical prats.

Answer: because Ford cars are crap compared with Porsche.

[Larry Rinkel]

In all seriousness, what goes through our head when we cruise around in our open-top Porsche 911 Carrera Turbo, or swank in our Porsche Cayenne as we try to find a parking space close to our favourite Knightsbridge store?

But I have a Toyota Camry . . . .

[LaciDeeLeBlanc]

what!?...what?!....what!?

"Insincere?" Music is "insincere"?  Do you mean that all classical music is just one big lie?  Beethoven lied to us?  I do not understand this concept of "sincerity".

As for why I listen to classical music... I am a music student. Classical music is an outlet of education and extreme pleasure for me.  I love playing my trombone and I could not see myself do anything else. 

Sure, I suppose it's easy to become a snob about popular music. But after I have gone to an Opera and listen to vocalists who can fill up an entire concert hall with no microphones and sing in any sort of position (laying on their back or their stomach, squatting, crawling, etc.), I suddenly lose respect for lip-synching Brittany Spears. Now that's what I would call insincere, putting on a concert without even singing.  What about the innumerable guitar players who cannot read music? I have been to heavy metal and punk concerts before.  The main attraction at those concerts is not the music, it's the presence of the "artists"; it's all a great, big, loud party.  Nothing really wrong with great, big, loud parties though, nothing wrong with having a great time.  However, within the music at those concerts, there is no concept of balance. Everything is as loud as it could possibly be.  Notice, but there are exceptions, that many of those bands sound much cleaner and generally better on their albums.

What can most popular music teach you? (Notice, I say most because there are exceptions) What can you take away from classical music? There's a reason why this music has survived so many years.

Do I think I'm just inherently "better" than anybody else because I listen to classical music?  No.  Am I more valuable as a person? No. Because I listen to classical music, am I more capable of loving and being loved and appreciated? No, I don't think so. Am I smarter than everyone who doesn't listen to classical music? Not necessarily. Do I listen to better music? Yes I do.

As for being insincere and superficial...I can tell you that I could not do the work I do and practice my horn like I do if I did not love it and have a passion for it.

[Don]

But I have a Toyota Camry . . . .

And I drive a 1988 Honda Accord - best car I ever had.