The Men's Rights Movement

[NorthNYMark]

At a guess, jerks don't feel that feminists distinguish between compassionate men and jerks 

This thread would appear to provide ample evidence for this hypothesis.

[Purusha]

Guys. I'm not being a jerk here. This is hate speech. Get it right, would ya.

[NorthNYMark]

For what it's worth, I'm with Karl about posting links.  I appreciate them being there for when I may have time to follow up, but for the purposes of discussion, I would prefer that people actually quote the most relevant points (from their point of view) in the body of the message, so that we might all be able to comment on the specific points with out first having to watch a video or read an essay (and possibly start talking past each other when we focus on different aspects of the videos or essays, or make comments that will only make sense to those who have clicked the link, etc.).  This is not in any way to denigrate the importance of a long, well-developed argument in essay form (and if people are so inclined, they can paste the text of a full essay here as well). Additionally, I'm just paranoid enough to be uncomfortable clicking random links from people I don't know, especially on politically charged topics.

[Karl Henning]

For what it's worth, I'm with Karl about posting links.  I appreciate them being there for when I may have time to follow up, but for the purposes of discussion, I would prefer that people actually quote the most relevant points (from their point of view) in the body of the message, so that we might all be able to comment on the specific points with out first having to watch a video or read an essay (and possibly start talking past each other when we focus on different aspects of the videos or essays, or make comments that will only make sense to those who have clicked the link, etc.).  This is not in any way to denigrate the importance of a long, well-developed argument in essay form (and if people are so inclined, they can paste the text of a full essay here as well). Additionally, I'm just paranoid enough to be uncomfortable clicking random links from people I don't know, especially on politically charged topics.

Besides, Purusha is putting on quite the dog-&-pony show with evading the point;  sending us off on a link is another diversionary tactic.  Doesn't change the fact that his assertions are toothless gibbering.

[NorthNYMark]

Guys. I'm not being a jerk here. This is hate speech. Get it right, would ya.

I apologize for the implication that you might be a jerk, which was not really the intention.  I do not know you, and for all I know, you would be the first to step in if you were to see a woman (or man, for that matter) being attacked. My intention was to agree that the notion that feminist critiques of particular behaviors or even particular patterns of (largely) male behavior apply to ALL man and ALL male behavior is a classic projection on the part of those making the accusation or assumption.

[Karl Henning]

Evasive, yes;  utterly wrong-headed, obviously.  But a jerk?  I could not venture a reliable opinion.

[Ken B]

This thread would be 98% shorter if some of you could properly distinguish between "some" and "all".

[Karl Henning]

Some truth in that.

[ibanezmonster]

I check back the next day and 3 pages have been written.

Um, nah... 

[lisa needs braces]

Besides, Purusha is putting on quite the dog-&-pony show with evading the point;  sending us off on a link is another diversionary tactic.  Doesn't change the fact that his assertions are toothless gibbering.

His posts have been thoroughly more substantive than yours.

[Ken B]

Oh no! A link!
http://college.usatoday.com/2015/05/13/professor-regrets-calling-white-college-males-a-problem-population/

[Ken B]

Lesson number one: statistics are facts. Like anything, they may be distorted and used in propaganda, but that doesn't make statistics a lie any more than it makes algebra a lie.

One out of two Debussy listeners is a pedophile. Seven out of eight Albanians Is murdered by age 35.
Do you believe these claims? If I used them in an argument, or a campaign what would you say.
These are false claims. Purusha is saying there are false claims about the incidence of rape being regularly cited.

Second lesson: A statistic is only a  fact about the sample from which it is drawn. A statistic is often used as an estimate of a population paramter. Presented that way, which is the way claims like "1 in 5 Ravel fans drools uncontrollably" they are not facts but inferences.

So to return to my first example. Do the following. Count Eugene Goosens and Ravel as your sample population. One of these men was a pedophile; both liked Debussy. So for this sample the cited statistic holds. But the bare claim "1 in 2 Debussy fans is a pedophile" is false, because it is presented as a statement about the population not the sample.

[Karl Henning]

Oh no! A link!
http://college.usatoday.com/2015/05/13/professor-regrets-calling-white-college-males-a-problem-population/

If it's not a video, I'm not mashing the link.

[Karl Henning]

Guys. I'm not being a jerk here. This is hate speech. Get it right, would ya.

You realize that sarcasm does not serve as argument?

Well, perhaps you don't.

[Karl Henning]

To recapitulate clearly:

Among other items, the students, after being told they were going to be asked about their experiences with unwanted sexual contact, were asked these two key questions:

Since you began college, has anyone had sexual contact with you by using physical force or threatening to physically harm you?

and

Since you began college, has someone had sexual contact with you when you were unable to provide consent or stop what was happening because you were passed out, drugged, drunk, incapacitated, or asleep? This question asks about incidents that you are certain happened.

To be counted as a victim of sexual assault or rape and included in the 1-in-5 statistic (19.8%), a woman would have to be a senior and answer "Yes" to one or both of those questions.

This clarifies the matter of "1-in-5";  has it been cavalierly bandied about in public discourse? Quite likely.  The average politician has an unenviably poor grasp of whatever fact may actually have been written into his speech. A politician mishandling a fact, does not nullify the fact. There is perfectly grave factual concern reflected in the results of the study.

I see you are avoiding the fact that the 1 in 5 rape statistic is nonsense.

I invite you again:  Do you wish to rephrase your remark?  If not, you are inviting the consideration that, yes, quite possibly you are a jerk.

When you are shown to be wrong, do you alter your tune?  Or is it just that you're right under any circumstance, i.e., your mind is made up, and you are not to be confused with the facts?  That's got the air of a jerk, you know.

[Karl Henning]

Damn, I didn't leave a link!  I contented myself with furnishing content all on my own.  I'm so tech-something-or-othery.

[Karl Henning]

Oh no! A link!
http://college.usatoday.com/2015/05/13/professor-regrets-calling-white-college-males-a-problem-population/

Anyway, just by the headline suggested in the URL, obviously it just supports Purusha's assertions in toto.  Alas!  I am defeated.  However will I live?

[ibanezmonster]

But the whole conspiracy theory BS that's being thrown around by paranoid bloggers Greg would probably find charming is laughable & sad at the same time.

I saw this and couldn't help but laugh. So Anita Sarkeesian = not paranoid, but anyone who just finds what she says to be completely stupid = paranoid.

But I forgot for a second that it's only the female that says she feels oppressed (and in the 1st world) whose feelings count and are the only ones that are logical.

[Karl Henning]

I saw this and couldn't help but laugh. So Anita Sarkeesian = not paranoid, but anyone who just finds what she says to be completely stupid = paranoid.

But I forgot for a second that it's only the female that says she feels oppressed (and in the 1st world) whose feelings count and are the only ones that are logical.

That's not exactly a rational contribution to the discussion, is it?

So my direct question to you is:  Are you actually interested in discussing the issues, which may require you to modify your thinking and preconceptions, or is this thread just a vent for you?

I ask simply for information so that I understand whether there is any point in pursuing the discussion with you.  If you're just here to whinge (I forgot for a second that it's only the female that says she feels oppressed (and in the 1st world) whose feelings count and are the only ones that are logical), there's no point in, say, discussing with you just what importance we should place on the feelings of college students who are content to use alcohol as a means to rape a date.  (Yes, I am sure they have feelings, too.)

[ibanezmonster]

there's no point in, say, discussing with you just what importance we should place on the feelings of college students who are content to use alcohol as a means to rape a date.  (Yes, I am sure they have feelings, too.)

That escalated quickly...

So my direct question to you is:  Are you actually interested in discussing the issues, which may require you to modify your thinking and preconceptions, or is this thread just a vent for you?

Umm... that's what I've been doing for dozens of pages. Pretty much anything that people like Rinaldo have to say are very easily questionable and refutable. But I could also just accept a viewpoint without question, but that's just not my style.

But I forgot for a second that it's only the female that says she feels oppressed (and in the 1st world) whose feelings count and are the only ones that are logical.

For example, this girl's opinion doesn't matter. She's a professional researcher talking about how she feels about Anita Sarkeesian.

https://www.youtube.com/v/OPJeqRHVShg