The Philosophy of Music: A Topic Fraught With....

[North Star]

I'd certainly agree that music has existed far longer than language, and that our ancestors communicated feelings with music, and perhaps used primitive wind instruments in hunting.

[lisa needs braces]

Music making -- and music appreciation -- could be an byproduct of human evolution. Music making signaled "fitness" to potential mates and thus the ability to produce and appreciate music eventually spread to the entire species because the music makers in ancestral groups kept getting rewarded with reproductive success.

[Szykneij]

Music making -- and music appreciation -- could be an byproduct of human evolution. Music making signaled "fitness" to potential mates and thus the ability to produce and appreciate music eventually spread to the entire species because the music makers in ancestral groups kept getting rewarded with reproductive success.

Stone Age Rock Stars?

[lisa needs braces]

Stone Age Rock Stars?

One of the mysteries of human evolution is why the human brain grew so large and capable. One idea is that the human mind assumed its present size as ancestral men and women who were talented in some way (speech, art making, sociability, etc) kept getting rewarded with reproductive success with the result that those traits came to be seen as signals of fitness, as markers of attractiveness. Eventually these talents spread to all humans in varying degrees. Basically the question of why music is so compelling to the human mind could all come down to mating. Perhaps your joke is spot on...we're all descendants of stone age rock stars. 

Also I'm probably mangling ideas I encountered in this book, which is quite informed but also speculative (and interesting):

[Szykneij]

Scientific studies have proven that making music increases the size of areas of the brain. I'm willing to consider the possibility that music making played an important part in the overall brain development of the species.

[Cato]

Music definitely opens up areas of the brain & consciousness.

Art music however has always had higher minded aspirations for its genesis and relates to us beyond just those primitive instincts.[/font]

Yes, and of course many other human advances (e.g. Mathematics) depend on "unneeded" abilities stemming from basic "survival of the fittest" advances in evolution.

Of course, our investigation into the philosophy of music here can debate whether "unneeded" is a valid word, given our modern knowledge that music and musical training indeed affect the brain.  The ancients believed in the healing ability of music: a good number of universities offer degrees in Music Therapy (like the University of Dayton, Michigan State).

I am reminded of stories about ancient experiments in the acquisition of language, where a baby is reared in silence so that one can determine which language the child's first babblings sound like.

If one could prevent a child from hearing Music e.g. for 10 years, what might be the result?  Would the child be emotionally/intellectually stunted?  Would it make no difference to his/her development?

[Cato]

Questions upon a discussion elsewhere about Pre-Socratic philosophy and what Plato/Socrates thought about music...

If philosophy is concerned with finding the Truth about Life, or at least in searching for the correct way to discover that, how is Music involved?  Or can Music be involved at all?  While checking some musicology websites, I came across a plea from a (college?) student about ideas on how to write an essay about "Truth in Music." 

S/he had no idea what the question meant.

What does it mean to say that e.g. "Beethoven's search for Truth can be heard in his music."  Is that a question which makes sense to you?   How?

Of course, if Music can be "true," can it - must it - have the possibility of being false?

[Ten thumbs]

Music tells no lies but if a composer copies another's work, his claim to it would be false.

[Cato]

Music tells no lies ...

Okay, so can you explain how Music "tells the truth"?

[jochanaan]

Music would seem unable either to "lie" or "tell truth." The most it can do is open our minds to consider the questions -- or perhaps for the Divine Nature to slip something in...

[NorthNYMark]

Questions upon a discussion elsewhere about Pre-Socratic philosophy and what Plato/Socrates thought about music...

If philosophy is concerned with finding the Truth about Life, or at least in searching for the correct way to discover that, how is Music involved?  Or can Music be involved at all?  While checking some musicology websites, I came across a plea from a (college?) student about ideas on how to write an essay about "Truth in Music." 

S/he had no idea what the question meant.

What does it mean to say that e.g. "Beethoven's search for Truth can be heard in his music."  Is that a question which makes sense to you?   How?

Of course, if Music can be "true," can it - must it - have the possibility of being false?

Admittedly, I may be the kind of prosaic soul for whom the question cannot make sense unless the term "truth" is defined.  If "truth" is defined simply as the correspondence of a proposition to reality (which, I believe, is how most of us habitually define it), the whole idea about a "search for truth (in general)" makes little sense, as there is no truth outside of a specific proposition--what is probably meant is something closer to "search for meaning."  If one understands "truth" in a Heideggerian way--as an active process of meaning making--then the idea of music making truth (as opposed to "being true" or "being false") makes more sense.  Then, it would involve someone arriving at an understanding of her/his own reality through music that would be impossible otherwise. As I suggested above, I think this is a very different concept of "truth" than what we normally think of.  In terms of the more standard concept of "truth," I think it has nothing whatsoever to do with music.

[Florestan]

I am reminded of stories about ancient experiments in the acquisition of language, where a baby is reared in silence so that one can determine which language the child's first babblings sound like.

None, of course. Languages are highly evolved constructs and depend on a whole series of factors, none of which is even remotely related to a child's first babblings.  A child reared in silence will be severely handicapped when it comes to talking and understanding talking, and not only that. Bottom line, a child will speak his parents' language, period.

If one could prevent a child from hearing Music e.g. for 10 years, what might be the result?  Would the child be emotionally/intellectually stunted?  Would it make no difference to his/her development?

That's a rhetorical question. Nobody can prevent a child from hearing music.

[Florestan]

If philosophy is concerned with finding the Truth about Life, or at least in searching for the correct way to discover that, how is Music involved?  Or can Music be involved at all?

Music has nothing whatsoever to do with Truth about Life because music is part of Life itself. Thinking about Life is one thing, living Life (which includes making music) is quite another. 

While checking some musicology websites, I came across a plea from a (college?) student about ideas on how to write an essay about "Truth in Music." 

S/he had no idea what the question meant.

Well, that's only too typical of (college) students nowadays: to ask for ideas on how to write an essay about things they are clueless about. 

And the worst thing about internet is that they eventually get a lot of responses from even bigger morons than them. 

What does it mean to say that e.g. "Beethoven's search for Truth can be heard in his music."

It means absolutely nothing. Blah-blah-blah at its worst.

Of course, if Music can be "true," can it - must it - have the possibility of being false?

Which is truer, Parsifal or La Sonnambula ?   

[Ten thumbs]

Okay, so can you explain how Music "tells the truth"?

It doesn't.

Music exists.

[Cato]

Music has nothing whatsoever to do with Truth about Life because music is part of Life itself. Thinking about Life is one thing, living Life (which includes making music) is quite another. 

Well, that's only too typical of (college) students nowadays: to ask for ideas on how to write an essay about things they are clueless about. 

And the worst thing about internet is that they eventually get a lot of responses from even bigger morons than them. 

It means absolutely nothing. Blah-blah-blah at its worst.

Which is truer, Parsifal or La Sonnambula ?   

Wow!  Today must be Philosophize About Music Sunday!  Many thanks to Florestan and the others for the nice responses!

For your next assignment, two words: Theodor Adorno!

[North Star]

Music has nothing whatsoever to do with Truth about Life because music is part of Life itself. Thinking about Life is one thing, living Life (which includes making music) is quite another. 

But music - like any art - inspires and influences our thinking, even if it is in ways that are not exactly predictable.

[Pat B]

I think many would accept that Beethoven's various struggles can be heard in his music. Maybe my lack of extensive studies in Philosophy is showing, but to me, "struggle" is very different than "search for Truth." Your postulate seems like trying to fit a square peg (Beethoven) for a round hole (somebody has an assignment to write an essay about Truth in Music).

JMO and sorry for the slow response.

[Mandryka]

There's a useful  working definition of truth in Aristotle:

To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true.

If that's right, then the question about truth is really the question whether music says things about the world.

I don't know the answer to this, I've never studied aesthetics. But some ways which music can be meaningful is to do with the way it juxtaposes emotions -- here's an example from Beethoven op 132

Although the posts in this thread have thus far concentrated on the radiant out-of-body experience that is the Heiliger Dankgesang, listening to the quartet as a whole leaves the impression that whatever was bothering Ludwig Van in the beginning is still bothering him at the end.

The overall structure leaves a very strange and unsettling impression. Listening, we progress from a world of angst at the beginning, to the mundane, nagging second movement, to the radiant central movement, which feels like peaceful meditation on a mountain-top - and then we go back down, into the mundane world again and finally back to the angst of the beginning. The positive, "healthy" coda to the finale sounds tacked on and illusory, coming as it does after a strange manic episode where the tempo increases to the point of fury. And viewed within the overall context of the quartet, the HD also feels oddly illusory, an interval of peace in a world of torment.

I found this note on Op. 132 in the diary of the Polish writer Witold Gombrowicz: "This quartet has been labeled the 'convalescent quartet.' It was generally agreed that the first allegro was illness; scherzo - the recovery; adagio, molto, andante - the thanksgiving hymn of recuperation; the final allegro - health and happiness. This precious quartet about a clouded, desperate sky...they have dressed in a bathrobe, slippers, nightcap, and stuffed with pills."

Another way is to do with the juxtaposition of music which has a pre-existing social meaning -- there's an analysis of the fugue in the Jupiter symphony like along these lines, in Zaslaw's book. And I've seen analyses of Brandenburg 5/i along these lines too.

[Cato]

I think many would accept that Beethoven's various struggles can be heard in his music. Maybe my lack of extensive studies in Philosophy is showing, but to me, "struggle" is very different than "search for Truth." Your postulate seems like trying to fit a square peg (Beethoven) for a round hole (somebody has an assignment to write an essay about Truth in Music).

Which is why the college student was so baffled by the assignment, because the professor - apparently with no explanation of how one should deal with his topic - assumed that one can "hear" somehow "Truth in Music."

Unless you are Theodor Adorno!   

Adorno was part of the Frankfurt gang of philosophers stewing together Freudian, Marxist, and Hegelian theories to analyze society.  Adorno (and I should dust off my copies of some of his books, which I recall shaking my head about 40-50 years ago) claimed that music became "truer" the more it "struggled" against the conventions expected of it in harmony, counterpoint, etc.

He believed, however, that the composer would fail (should fail, is doomed to fail?) to break free completely.

One can agree that hearing "violent music" can be like hearing a struggle of some sort, although one can never know anything more specific, unless the composer provides a program, or a text.  Or unless you are Theodor Adorno, who would tell you that the struggling sounds you hear are actually a struggle against society!

This is only the tip of the iceberg, but you might sense where Adorno is heading toward.

I should mention that Schoenberg did not think much of Adorno: somewhere in Style and Idea (I think) he chastises the philosopher (and others also, I believe) for emphasizing the "twelve-tone" in "twelve-tone composition" instead of the "composition."

And thanks to Mandryka for the comments on juxtaposition of emotions: is that meant to be a Hegelian dialectic?   

[(poco) Sforzando]

I think many would accept that Beethoven's various struggles can be heard in his music. Maybe my lack of extensive studies in Philosophy is showing, but to me, "struggle" is very different than "search for Truth." Your postulate seems like trying to fit a square peg (Beethoven) for a round hole (somebody has an assignment to write an essay about Truth in Music).

JMO and sorry for the slow response.

I forget the composer and exact circumstances, but as I recall when a certain composer was asked "what was his biggest struggle," he replied: "Getting the notes right."