Ukraine in turmoil

[North Star]

Ukraine Revolution 2014 in Color
Photographs by Alfred Yaghobzadeh

[Todd]

He'd get my vote!

[Florestan]

Am I the only one who thinks Putin is out of his mind for good? 

[Todd]

Am I the only one who thinks Putin is out of his mind for good?

I doubt he's out of his mind, and he's certainly up to no good.  (And he and his advisers may be a clever lot, though Obama and his advisers are on the clever side, too.) 

[Rinaldo]

Am I the only one who thinks Putin is out of his mind for good? 

The poor guy is just misunderstood - here, let him explain himself!

https://www.youtube.com/v/vXTY93RaF4U

[Cosi bel do]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/11/world/europe/ukraine-russia-unrest/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Well I guess that won't stop until Ukraine is wiped off the map.

Ah ! Munich !

[Todd]

Ah ! Munich !

Ah!  Godwin's Law!

[Cosi bel do]

I don't think Godwin's law applies here, since :
- Godwin's law doesn't mean two comparable situations should not be eventually compared (I'm not accusing Wilhelm Kempff to be a nazi because his piano playing is a massacre, which would be a clear Godwin point), for instance the invasion of Ukraine today, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland a few decades ago,
- I didn't think I'd have to explain this, but the comparison is between Merkel, Hollande, Cameron etc. and Daladier, Chamberlain etc., not between Putin's nationalism and Hitler's ideology.

[Todd]

I don't think Godwin's law applies here, since :
- Godwin's law doesn't mean two comparable situations should not be eventually compared (I'm not accusing Wilhelm Kempff to be a nazi because his piano playing is a massacre, which would be a clear Godwin point), for instance the invasion of Ukraine today, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland a few decades ago,
- I didn't think I'd have to explain this, but the comparison is between Merkel, Hollande, Cameron etc. and Daladier, Chamberlain etc., not between Putin's nationalism and Hitler's ideology.

You brought up Munich and appeasement.  That evokes the Nazis, as it is specifically designed to do.  Your attempt to explain why it doesn't rings hollow.  If you want to offer a serious point about appeasement, or whatever the best description of the policies being pursued with respect to Ukraine may be, don't bring up Munich.

[Cosi bel do]

You brought up Munich and appeasement.  That evokes the Nazis, as it is specifically designed to do.  Your attempt to explain why it doesn't rings hollow.  If you want to offer a serious point about appeasement, or whatever the best description of the policies being pursued with respect to Ukraine may be, don't bring up Munich.

I supposed you might be trolling here, but I'm still going to respond, just in case you're serious.

I don't see why one should be forbidden to bring up Munich when comparing two similar situations. So if I make a historical point not involving Nazis (let's say, Agadir 1911 for instance, even if it has less relevance here) it would be okay, but any comparison with the 1933-1945 period is forbidden ? Isn't that a little absurd ?

And, by the way, it's not because you don't understand something that it is "hollow".

[Cosi bel do]

This distorted use of Godwin's law might be a good example of Greenwald's law actually.

[Todd]

I don't see why one should be forbidden to bring up Munich when comparing two similar situations.

It isn't forbidden.  It is inaccurate.

It appears that you still don't know what the word "trolling" means, and it is a distinct possibility that you never will.

[Cosi bel do]

It isn't forbidden.  It is inaccurate.

It appears that you still don't know what the word "trolling" means, and it is a distinct possibility that you never will.

It is very accurate, on the contrary. Two comparable situations can be compared, whatever the role of the Nazis in one or another of these situations.

Trolling, as in "to attempt to lure others into combative argument for purposes of personal entertainment". As I said, I thought you might be trolling. It appears you aren't and I'm sorry (that you are serious about all that, I mean).

[Todd]

It is very accurate, on the contrary. Two comparable situations can be compared, whatever the role of the Nazis in one or another of these situations.

You have not shown how European policy responses with respect to Ukraine in 2014 are comparable to appeasement with the Nazis in Munich in 1938.  You linked to a CNN story and then asserted the situations are comparable.  That does not make them comparable.

[mc ukrneal]

You have not shown how European policy responses with respect to Ukraine in 2014 are comparable to appeasement with the Nazis in Munich in 1938. 

Are you denying there is a similarity or are you asking for the case to be laid out? Or something else?

[Todd]

Are you denying there is a similarity or are you asking for the case to be laid out? Or something else?

I'd like to see someone write a reasoned argument how appeasing the Nazis in 1938 is similar to the policies being pursued now by European leaders with respect to Russian actions in Ukraine.  Such a comparison should, one would think, take into account the different strategic realities faced by Germany in 1938 and Russia in 2014.  It has been commonplace to compare any number of countries' actions to Nazi actions for seventy years, but that doesn't make the comparisons accurate.  It makes them a form of scaremongering.  Likewise, comparing any given leader's or leaders' actions to Neville Chamberlain's, say, is just a more polite, apparently non-Godwin's law way of doing the same thing.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

  It has been commonplace to compare any number of countries' actions to Nazi actions for seventy years, but that doesn't make the comparisons accurate.  It makes them a form of scaremongering. 

Thank you for saying that. I sometimes get the impression that Hitler is the only historical figure many people are aware of, so overused is this argument. In this case there are more pertinent analogies, like Bismarck or Catherine the Great.

[Cosi bel do]

I'd like to see someone write a reasoned argument how appeasing the Nazis in 1938 is similar to the policies being pursued now by European leaders with respect to Russian actions in Ukraine.  Such a comparison should, one would think, take into account the different strategic realities faced by Germany in 1938 and Russia in 2014.  It has been commonplace to compare any number of countries' actions to Nazi actions for seventy years, but that doesn't make the comparisons accurate.  It makes them a form of scaremongering.  Likewise, comparing any given leader's or leaders' actions to Neville Chamberlain's, say, is just a more polite, apparently non-Godwin's law way of doing the same thing.

So now Godwin's law applies to Nazism, Hitler, Chamberlain, Daladier, eeeeer... Germany, Czechoslovakia, France, Britain... eeeer... well let's say any kind of comparison of any current fact with any historical situation in Europe falls under Godwin's law, that will be more simple.

[Todd]

So now Godwin's law applies to Nazism, Hitler, Chamberlain, Daladier, eeeeer... Germany, Czechoslovakia, France, Britain... eeeer... well let's say any kind of comparison of any current fact with any historical situation in Europe falls under Godwin's law, that will be more simple.

You are the one who brought up Munich in 1938, and then tried to explain how that is not a reference to Nazis.  That is incredible, in the strict sense of the word.

But perhaps you can explain how they are equivalent, or even materially similar.  You have not done that yet.  You only made a weak proclamation.

[Cosi bel do]

You are the one who brought up Munich in 1938, and then tried to explain how that is not a reference to Nazis.  That is incredible, in the strict sense of the word.

But perhaps you can explain how they are equivalent, or even materially similar.  You have not done that yet.  You only made a weak proclamation.

If you can't understand how comparing the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, in order to "free" the "Russians of Ukraine", and the absence of reaction from European leaders, can be compared to the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938 by Germany, in order to "free" the "Germans of Sudetenland", and the absence of reaction from European leaders back then, I can't really do anything for you.

(Anyway, anyone who has read a few of my posts in the music sections know I love comparisons  )