Ukraine in turmoil

[drogulus]

Yeah, the right thing was to leave Europe and Ukraine to their own devices. They want unity - unify. If you can't protect your territorial integrity without massive outside intervention, do you have any territorial integrity to begin with?

     The US defends itself cheaply by helping Ukraine. For a pittance it has destroyed massive amounts of gear Russia would need for further invasions. Even for purely selfish reasons aid to Ukraine is a win.

[drogulus]

Only if you ever viewed them as a viable threat, at least from a US-perspective, I don't think they are (or have been since the end of WW II).

    I think you mean US territory. That's an odd way to think in the modern interconnected world. All of the advanced economies depend on the world trade system the US principally defends, and the US depends on them to a great extent for its continued prosperity. There's never been a better example of enlightened self interest, even better than the Warsaw Pact and the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, though others may differ. 
   

[AnotherSpin]

Really?  You want to go there?  I feel for your country, I truly do, but comments like this aren't helping.  Think.

K

What reactions do you expect after White House announcing the halt of agreed, approved, and ongoing arms deliveries? After statements about friendship with Putin, intentions to lift sanctions, and promises to reintegrate Russia into the G7?

This night, another large-scale Russian drone strike targeted Ukraine, including the region where I live. Civilian infrastructure, including energy facilities, was damaged; people were injured. Any comments?

[AnotherSpin]

Yeah, the right thing was to leave Europe and Ukraine to their own devices. They want unity - unify. If you can't protect your territorial integrity without massive outside intervention, do you have any territorial integrity to begin with?

Do you truly believe this is about Ukraine? Isn't it obvious that this is merely another move in the grand design of a mad dictator, ruling over a state that has always sustained itself through conquest and bloodshed? The longer the West indulges in the illusion of appeasing Moscow, the steeper the cost will be for restoring order and integrity, not in Ukraine, but on a far greater scale.

[Brian]

I completely understand and (personally agree with) AS' comments above, but I'm not here to express any of my views. Just to say that we are watching to make sure that the replies - or any other comments on this thread, by anybody - do not become personal attacks.

[AnotherSpin]

Basically, I'm done with this topic. There's nothing to explain or prove. Those who see, see, and those who don't — why waste energy?

[Florestan]

All the conflicts in my lifetime, all which I oppose, have not nothing for me or my neighborhood, and that is my primary concern - not myself, but those around me who are suffering, and whose suffering can be alleviated

I assume you are heavily involved in charity work.

[Irons]

Vance lectured our (British) PM on freedom of speech. I thought that Keir Starmer handled it well - not getting angry and pointing out that we have enjoyed freedom of speech for a long time over here.

"Or some random country who have not fought a war for 30-40 years". Vance is backtracking saying his comments not directed to France or UK but fails to confirm who.

History will look at President Zelensky as one of the bravest and important figures of the 21c but I feel the time is ripe for him to make the ultimate sacrifice - himself. A new leader of Ukraine can bring fresh focus and squash Trump's narrative of Zelensky being a dictator.

[Brian]

A new leader of Ukraine can bring fresh focus and squash Trump's narrative of Zelensky being a dictator.

I doubt this, as the American president is a master of simply making up a new narrative and will simply insult the new leader instead.

[Florestan]

they are wars in Africa with greater body counts (those bodies just happen to be black, so your mainstream news sources don't count them as worth reporting on).

I think the principal reason for which the Russo-Ukrainian War gets much ampler coverage is that none of the wars in Africa, however brutal and bloody they might be, has the potential to escalate into WWIII.

[SimonNZ]

No one is going to WW III over Ukraine.

The next country Putin tries to return to Soviet-era status will probably be a NATO member - and people will be obliged to go to WW3 over that. So better to kick his ass and his ambitions in Ukraine.

[SimonNZ]

I hesitate to ask, but...what does "one like Ukraine" mean?

[Florestan]

No one is going to WW III over Ukraine.

It's not about Ukraine, just as WWI was not about Belgium and WWII was not about Poland.

[Florestan]

Russia isn't Germany; nor is Putin Hitler. Putin and Russia can barely expand into areas that are of even less importance than Ukraine.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.

[Florestan]

I suspect we disagree, primarily, because of the states that we are from.

Primarily but not solely, given that there are Americans who disagree with you as well, despite living in the same country as you.

[Florestan]

I suspect, in the grand scheme, there is a much larger divide between me and those other citizens of the United States, but that's no different than anywhere else - it's called "interest convergence."

Far be it from me to demand unanimity of opinion among citizens. It's unnatural and abnormal and can only be obtained (better said, enforced) by dictatorship and repression.

[Madiel]

There are a whole host of nations that joined NATO precisely because they don't want to be absorbed into Russia or a Russian empire. Including ones that have past experience of the process.

I tend to agree that "having your citizens die for another nation is not done for altruistic reasons", but there is a considerable chunk of Europe where, if things escalated, the reasons for being involved would not be altruistic.

The USA's position in world affairs is so completely up in the air at the moment that the only comment I'm going to make about it is how it's completely up in the air.

Also, from the Russian perspective it's worth remembering that Ukraine and Belarus are regarded differently to other countries. There are Russians, Putin among them judging by certain speeches, who fundamentally don't believe that Ukraine is really a separate country. It's a bunch of Russians with a slightly funny accent who got led astray in the 19th century by Westerners, i.e. the western parts being in Austria-Hungary. In the narrative of Putin and his ilk, Kyiv is regarded as the birthplace of Russia (the whole issue of the true relationship between Rus in Kyiv and the developing Russia in Moscow being fairly crucial).

All of which is my roundabout way of saying that the perspective of what's going on and how much it matters is going to differ a great deal in different places, as well as within places. Ukrainian politics was dominated for many years by the question of being more Europe-facing or more Russia-facing, long before 2014 when this thread started.

[DavidW]

Primarily but not solely, given that there are Americans who disagree with you as well, despite living in the same country as you.

Yes, that was the narrative people gave in the beginning for why Ukraine would quickly and decisely defeat Russia. But that didn't happen. Russia might not be of their former strength, but they are not a joke, either.

[Florestan]

Yes, that was the narrative people gave in the beginning for why Ukraine would quickly and decisely defeat Russia. But that didn't happen. Russia might not be of their former strength, but they are not a joke, either.

There's the old saying: Russia is never as strong as she claims to be and never as weak as she appears to be.

[Florestan]

Well, nothing unexpected so far. One can recall the phrase often attributed to Winston Churchill: "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they've tried everything else."

No, no, no, a thousand times no!

Such bitterness and recrimination is uncalled for. The Trump administration should not be confused with "Americans", just as Putin's dictatorship should not be confused with "Russians". It's precisely such a black-and-white, radically uncompromising stance that we partisans and defenders of liberal democracy should not only avoid, but actively oppose.