Ukraine in turmoil

[snyprrr]

Then what's the hold up with Keystone?

Mu$$ad agaents are easier to spot in Wyoming??

I guess the populace here is more readily able to fight off the oil interests than your average European or Middle Easterner?

Or are the oil interests so wrapped up in foreign oil that the home-grown just isn't worth it to their bottom line?

I mean, they CAN make a car with much higher mileage than they have- they just won't make it. If there's a cure for "cancer" (copyright protection) I'm sure it will never see the light of day because of said profits.

So, I guess profits are the only hold-up?

Quo bono?


Frankly, sometimes I'm forced to hear Hannity go on about Keystone as if he were on the payroll. Oh that AM reception...

Don't get me wrong- Hannity's a Marxist in my book, soooo,...... (ok, "fascist", but I'm not one to put distinctions between those two words) "You're a Great American Todd" oy vey- have you ever heard the brain dead housewives on ANY talk show??... ack!!!

I'm a Theocratic Monarchist, so, filter accordingly.

[Todd]

Or are the oil interests so wrapped up in foreign oil that the home-grown just isn't worth it to their bottom line?

US oil production seems to be going pretty well.  Finish Keystone, and "liberalize" or "reform" Pemex (ie, allow ExxonMobil, et al to get involved in its operations), and the US - sorry, North America - will become a net energy exporter within the next decade or so, with significant implications for US strategy.

[mc ukrneal]

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian army issued a general mobilization order, and only 1.5% of soldiers bothered to show up. As if that weren't enough, the chief admiral of Ukraine's navy declared his loyalty to separatist Crimea.

Remember the old hippie slogan "what if they gave a war and nobody came"?

I am told that there are long lines to join. Don't know any numbers though.

[mc ukrneal]

Tanks appear to be massing on the boarder near Kharkiv and Lugansk regions.

[kishnevi]

"Israeli army vet led Ukrainian militia unit (street fighters)"

Huh, from H'aaretzm,,, looks like I was right on Page1. Haven't seen any other members mention this. Huh. I guess it really didn't happen then?

Maybe I'll just get this over with now: THE NEXT TIME,... THE NEXT COUNTRY... I say to you now, they will find  MOS-C-I-A-AD to have started that too. So, just for future reference, when there is an oil pipeline to be had.

DID I MENTION OIL PIPELINE???

Seriously people, call a spade a spade around here won't ya?!?! "Only democracy in the middle east" I mean, give-me-a-break

It's from H'aaretz, haha, not stormfront, gaaah.

Actually, given the large number of people who emigrated to Israel from the exSoviet Union after the collapse of Communism,  it's quite possible, and no more meaningful than if the person in question had been a guestworker in the Czech Republic or Germany.

[Florestan]

It is not even close.  The hypocrisy is evident in some of the responses here.  Perhaps some people suffer amnesia, though.  To refresh memories: the US trumped up charges before invading Iraq the second time - with a lot of support from Congress.  But that was pristinely democratic, you see.  Similar actions by Russia were for show, you see.  The US helped spearhead the carving up of Sudan by supporting South Sudan - where almost all of Sudan's oil was, though one can almost hear the apologists say that probably didn't influence decisions as to the geography of the breakup - and now it does nothing as what is left of Sudan starts to dissolve into utter chaos.  It's not in the news cycle anymore, so why think about it at all?  The US and EU helped get rid of Gaddafi, because he was no longer useful.  He was weak, too.  Democracy will take time in these countries; we must be patient, and we may need to use undemocratic means to support democracy if they have trouble with it.  It will be for their own good.

In Ukraine, the US and EU provided funds and support to agitators, which included some quasi-fascists, by the way.  But now there are consequences for those actions.  It might make sense to stick to manipulating weak countries with little or no support. 

Excellent examples.

Romanians have a proverb: Lord, preserve me from my friends, for against my ennemies I can defend myself all right. 

[Florestan]

I'm a Theocratic Monarchist

You should move to Saudi Arabia then. 

[snyprrr]

You should move to Saudi Arabia then. 

Why? Don't the Saudis and the Israelis both run the US? So, I'm in a protectorate. Home sweet home...

[Karl Henning]

snypsss, threads like this are a bad idea for you, aren't they? 

[Ten thumbs]

We do not know at the moment whether or not the new government in Kiev has majority backing in the country, so we should not even speak of freedom and democracy. Once upon a time there was the Orange revolution - where is it now? It seems the country is fairly evenly divided, so why should the people of Crimea submit to an undemocratic electoral body?

[kishnevi]

We do not know at the moment whether or not the new government in Kiev has majority backing in the country, so we should not even speak of freedom and democracy. Once upon a time there was the Orange revolution - where is it now? It seems the country is fairly evenly divided, so why should the people of Crimea submit to an undemocratic electoral body?

Superficially true, except that the previous regime could not be called free and democratic, and Putin's Russia is even less so.  The new regime in Kiev may not be free and democratic in a pristine way, but it's certainly more democratic and more free than the old one, or Putin's.

[mc ukrneal]

We do not know at the moment whether or not the new government in Kiev has majority backing in the country, so we should not even speak of freedom and democracy. Once upon a time there was the Orange revolution - where is it now? It seems the country is fairly evenly divided, so why should the people of Crimea submit to an undemocratic electoral body?

The Parliament, which chose the current government, was elected. The people in that Parliament are made up from a majority that were from the President's own party.

[Ten thumbs]

Superficially true, except that the previous regime could not be called free and democratic, and Putin's Russia is even less so.  The new regime in Kiev may not be free and democratic in a pristine way, but it's certainly more democratic and more free than the old one, or Putin's.

Yes, comparatively speaking but I don't think the Americans would accept it at home. Given a similar scenario, the U.S. would do exactly what Putin is doing, otherwise their president would certainly be castigated as weak. That's not to say that it is right but it is a pragmatic policy. The real cause of all this trouble is the terrible economic situation in Ukraine. The West are now offering an aid package. It's a pity this couldn't have been done before but as has been revealed, there was corruption in high places.

[amw]

The West are now offering an aid package. It's a pity this couldn't have been done before but as has been revealed, there was corruption in high places.

I thought it was done before, just the West only offered $800 million to Russia's $15 billion. In fact that seems to be what started this whole Euromaidan thing if I recall correctly.

[Rinaldo]

The hypocrisy is evident in some of the responses here.  Perhaps some people suffer amnesia, though.  To refresh memories: the US trumped up charges before invading Iraq the second time - with a lot of support from Congress.  But that was pristinely democratic, you see.  Similar actions by Russia were for show, you see.  The US helped spearhead the carving up of Sudan by supporting South Sudan - where almost all of Sudan's oil was, though one can almost hear the apologists say that probably didn't influence decisions as to the geography of the breakup - and now it does nothing as what is left of Sudan starts to dissolve into utter chaos.  It's not in the news cycle anymore, so why think about it at all?  The US and EU helped get rid of Gaddafi, because he was no longer useful.  He was weak, too.  Democracy will take time in these countries; we must be patient, and we may need to use undemocratic means to support democracy if they have trouble with it.  It will be for their own good.

In Ukraine, the US and EU provided funds and support to agitators, which included some quasi-fascists, by the way.  But now there are consequences for those actions.  It might make sense to stick to manipulating weak countries with little or no support.

There's a difference between having a problem with the West going to war on trumped up charges / making terrible decisions worldwide (and I sure DO have a problem with that) and having a problem with Russia - a state that inches towards dictatorship every day - stepping wherever it wants.

And by the way, the vast majority of people who rebelled against Yanukovich's cleptocracy were regular folks simply fed up with the corrupt goverment. They protested peacefully until the president commanded the use of force and things escalated from there. Yeah, a bunch of hooligans & quasi-fascists showed up, but what would you expect? A revolution doesn't cherry pick its participants.

[Todd]

There's a difference between having a problem with the West going to war on trumped up charges / making terrible decisions worldwide (and I sure DO have a problem with that) and having a problem with Russia - a state that inches towards dictatorship every day - stepping wherever it wants.

Not really.  Russia's aggression in recent years has been limited to the Caucasus and Ukraine, territories traditionally (ie, the last several hundred years) dominated by Russia.  Since the Cold War, the US has engaged in war, or military action if war is deemed too harsh a word, in the former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, and it has engaged in clandestine activity in more countries.  The flowery language of democracy cannot make up for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and the ongoing, remote-control murder of whomever is deemed an enemy combatant.  It is the US that operates wherever it wants, that kills wherever it wants.  Putin is an autocrat, to be sure, but that doesn't automatically make his actions any worse.

As to those who protested in Ukraine, what proportion of the population was involved, and do they really represent the majority or even a significant minority of Ukrainian citizens?  I have doubts that they represent the feelings and desires of "the people", and I have even greater doubts that they would be able to set up a responsible government.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

The flowery language of democracy cannot make up for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and the ongoing, remote-control murder of whomever is deemed an enemy combatant.

There's a common assumption that democracies are peaceful and authoritarian states are expansionist, but that's based on a very selective reading of history. If one begins with the age of European exploration and colonization, some of the most aggressive, expansionist states have been those that were most liberal and democratic for their time (in rough historical order: the Netherlands, Great Britain, France, and the USA). While I can think of plenty of monarchies and dictatorships that minded their own business.

[Ken B]

There's a common assumption that democracies are peaceful and authoritarian states are expansionist, but that's based on a very selective reading of history. If one begins with the age of European exploration and colonization, some of the most aggressive, expansionist states have been those that were most liberal and democratic for their time (in rough historical order: the Netherlands, Great Britain, France, and the USA). While I can think of plenty of monarchies and dictatorships that minded their own business.

Sweden in WWII for instance.

Speaking of selective lists, where's Portugal, Spain, on yours?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Speaking of selective lists, where's Portugal, Spain, on yours?

Yes, Portugal and Spain were not particularly liberal when they were expanding. But the overall point is that you can't predict international aggressiveness from form of government, and being democratic is no guarantee that country X will respect the integrity of country Y.

[North Star]

Sweden in WWII for instance.

Well that was just common sense.