Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Todd]

there have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.

I've not read the Times or Telegraph reviews, but any online shop (Amazon, HMV, et al) that has reviews will invariably have glowing reviews.  Even the most atrocious recordings will garner some five star ratings.

[DavidRoss]

That's the thing that shocked me: there have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.

Well there you have it! The NY Times is definitely in an alternate universe, and some of Amazon's reviewers are damned near perfect reverse barometers!

[Leon]

That's the thing that shocked me: there have been glowing reviews in the NY Times and Telegraph, and Amazon's reviewers love it.

The Beethoven piano sonatas has been an ongoing area of interest of mine for a long time and while not a "completest" I have accumulated probably two dozen or more complete sets and several more individual recordings, so the following comments are set in a fairly developed context.

While I would not recommend HJ Lim's set,   I also do not consider it a total failure.  There are aspects about her playing which I think work, and bring some thing new to these works.  Yes, she's sloppy in places, but so are others who are otherwise given high praise (Schnabel comes to mind).  And yes, her tempos and dynamic changes exaggerated.  These aspects by themselves are not enough to totally write off her set, at least to my way of thinking.

There is a there there.

I just wish she had waited a bit longer before committing these works to a well publicized complete cycle, and it may be that she will revisit them later.  Daniel Baremboim also recorded a complete set as a young pianist, 25 I think, and was criticized for his perceived excesses when they first came out.  He went on the record them three more times, and upon reflection I find his first set very good after all.

Arguably, Lim is no Barenboim - but I'll refrain from heaping opprobrium upon her and rather applaud her gumption in taking the bull by the horns, so to speak and putting herself on the line.

[Brian]

I've not read the Times or Telegraph reviews, but any online shop (Amazon, HMV, et al) that has reviews will invariably have glowing reviews.  Even the most atrocious recordings will garner some five star ratings.

Here's a quick roundup of all the reviews I've been able to find.

NYT review (live concert: Opp 106, 109)
"An idiosyncratic player with plenty of original ideas and the technique to carry them out, Ms. Lim has devoted considerable time to studying not only the works themselves but also Beethoven biographies and letters and other historical materials."
"A physically exuberant player, Ms. Lim tossed back her long, untied hair during more tumultuous moments and played with expressive commitment and colorful nuance throughout both sonatas. The overall arc and momentum sometimes felt distorted, but Ms. Lim's intellectual analysis and emotional engagement resulted in fresh, vigorous interpretations."

BBC Music Magazine:
"it's perhaps appropriate that the most successful recordings here should be of the fast movements: the finale of No.10 goes like the wind and that of Sonata No.4, Op.7 keeps a lovely balance between hell-for-leather speed and delicately sprung rubato, while its opening movement has a wonderfully fast-flowing urgency. Some of the quirkier movements are joyfully characterised, and there are times when Lim's tone colour attains magnificence."

Kirk McElhearn, typically of MusicWeb but here on his blog:
"Her tempi are noticeably faster than most pianists, and this gives the music a bit of a virtuosic sound, especially in movements with very fast runs like the scherzo of Sonata no. 10. Whether each listener appreciates these tempi is up to them..."
"What I find most disturbing about this set is the sound of the piano. It is a Yamaha CFX, and it sounds like Lin is playing on icicles. This harsh, thin, almost artificial sound, combined with the speed of the playing, makes this set sound very cold and distant. While the technique is there, I hear little emotion, as it seems that the goal here is to be flashy and flamboyant, rather than reflective."

Actual Pianist James Rhodes for the Telegraph:
"...the young Korean pianist H J Lim has trumped every recording I've heard with the first installment of her sonata cycle for EMI. This is playing that does everything one could possibly want and so much more – it is the musical equivalent of Viagra, restoring passion, lust and hunger for an old lover – something the classical music industry is desperately in need of.  It forces you to listen to this music as if for the very first time, rediscovering everything that is great about it – like being married for 30 years and suddenly one morning waking up and seeing your wife miraculously transformed back into the smoking hot 20-something you first met and remembering how impossibly lucky you are to be with her."
"This is the kind of album that will save the classical music recording industry. It's the kind of album I want to buy 20 of and hand out in the street to strangers.  It's the kind of album that, if you've never heard a Beethoven sonata before will convert you for life and ruin every other performance you'll hear."


-

Arnold, there have been intermittent moments that I have respected and even liked. But once I put on Guy, Brautigam, Gilels, et al, I can't go back to Lim.

[Todd]

Yes, she's sloppy in places, but so are others who are otherwise given high praise (Schnabel comes to mind).

This comparison is not particularly valuable.  Sloppy Schnabel is orders of magnitude more insightful than Lim at her best. 

Lim's cycle is impetuous, yes, but it's also just juvenile in a way that other young pianists' LvB recordings were (and are) not.  Young Gulda showed hints of his future greatness, for instance.  Young Barenboim was grandiose, but never unconventional just to be unconventional, and he at least had the good sense to actually record all of the sonatas rather than just thirty.  Biss' EMI LvB is so much better than Lim's, it's hard to believe they were close to the same age when recording.  Yokoyama's complete cycle, while also sloppy at times, has a seriousness that Lim's lacks, and his studio single disc is serious and hefty.  Hell, even Alice Sara Ott's mediocre LvB is more serious and insightful.  Lim's cycle is Grrrl Power introduced to high art.

[DavidRoss]

Biss' EMI LvB is so much better than Lim's, it's hard to believe they were close to the same age when recording. 

Hmmm...I was quite impressed with Biss when I heard him a few years ago. Perhaps this could tempt me into a purchase...but first, let's see if Mog has his Beethoven!

[DieNacht]

The youtube Moonlight and Les Adieux are indeed weird and make the music hardly recognizable. But I´d rather explore that set than be bored by say the Øland recordings I know.

[Todd]

NYT review (live concert: Opp 106, 109)"An idiosyncratic player with plenty of original ideas and the technique to carry them out"


Kirk McElhearn, typically of MusicWeb but here on his blog:
"Her tempi are noticeably faster than most pianists, and this gives the music a bit of a virtuosic sound, especially in movements with very fast runs like the scherzo of Sonata no. 10.

To me it doesn't sound like Lim quite has the technique to carry out her ideas, nor does she strike me as virtuosic in the same way that Gulda or Goodyear do, for instance. 

Actual Pianist James Rhodes for the Telegraph:"
...the young Korean pianist H J Lim has trumped every recording I've heard with the first installment of her sonata cycle for EMI. This is playing that does everything one could possibly want and so much more – it is the musical equivalent of Viagra, restoring passion, lust and hunger for an old lover – something the classical music industry is desperately in need of.  It forces you to listen to this music as if for the very first time, rediscovering everything that is great about it – like being married for 30 years and suddenly one morning waking up and seeing your wife miraculously transformed back into the smoking hot 20-something you first met and remembering how impossibly lucky you are to be with her."

I wonder if perhaps he is influenced by the cover art a bit too much.

[Todd]

But I´d rather explore that set than be bored by say the Øland recordings I know.

Lim is at at about the same level as Øland to my ears; that is, bottom of the barrel.

[Leon]

This comparison is not particularly valuable.  Sloppy Schnabel is orders of magnitude more insightful than Lim at her best. 

Lim's cycle is impetuous, yes, but it's also just juvenile in a way that other young pianists' LvB recordings were (and are) not.  Young Gulda showed hints of his future greatness, for instance.  Young Barenboim was grandiose, but never unconventional just to be unconventional, and he at least had the good sense to actually record all of the sonatas rather than just thirty.  Biss' EMI LvB is so much better than Lim's, it's hard to believe they were close to the same age when recording.  Yokoyama's complete cycle, while also sloppy at times, has a seriousness that Lim's lacks, and his studio single disc is serious and hefty.  Hell, even Alice Sara Ott's mediocre LvB is more serious and insightful.  Lim's cycle is Grrrl Power introduced to high art.

I basically agree with your comments - however I can not help but feel that much of the harshest criticism of Lim is based on something other than musical criterion, and your "grrl power" comment reveals something of what I am referring to.  I don't mind at all that she only recorded 30 of the sonatas, and find that criticism a red herring. 

But, I vastly prefer Biss, and among of the newer recordings his is my current favorite - I like his playing better than Guy and the only other recording which rates as high in my estimation is Bavouzet, a far more experienced pianist.  I am eagerly awaiting more from Biss, but consider it a good sign that he plans to take a decade to complete the cycle of all sonatas.

[Sergeant Rock]

I wonder if perhaps he is influenced by the cover art a bit too much.

I wonder if you aren't...but in the opposite way 

Edit: I see Arnold already suggested this.

Sarge

[Todd]

I basically agree with your comments - however I can not help but feel that much of the harshest criticism of Lim is based on something other than musical criterion, and your "grrl power" comment reveals something of what I am referring to.  I don't mind at all that she only recorded 30 of the sonatas, and find that criticism a red herring. 

The Grrrl Power comment is basically no more than recognition that Ms Lim, her managers, and EMI are very consciously marketing this cycle partly on her gender, youth, and looks.  One literally has to be blind to not see this.  Her playing is impetuous, occasionally sloppy, not especially insightful (at best), and idiosyncratic just to be idiosyncratic.  Only recording thirty sonatas is another gimmick – see how thoughtful the young Ms Lim is!  I'd wager in ten years' time, let alone twenty or thirty or forty, her cycle will not be remembered as one of the greats on the market.  Keep in mind, that when I got her first volume, when that's all there was, that I was very interested to hear what she could do, and I had high hopes – as I do with every cycle.  Then I listened.

I wonder if you aren't...but in the opposite way

Not at all.  For instance, I own and enjoy Naida Cole's two Decca releases, and she is quite attractive.  I have a disc by Jitka Hosprová that I think highly of.  I enjoy pretty much every Veronique Gens recording I've heard.  Any insinuation that I dislike Ms Lim because of her looks is more than faintly ridiculous.

[Sergeant Rock]

I'd wager in ten years' time, let alone twenty or thirty or forty, her cycle will not be remembered as one of the greats on the market.

I don't know. Predicting the future is a fool's game. What we do know is that she's standing out from a very crowded field, making a name for herself. If she seriously pursues this career, who knows where it will lead. Gould was eccentric too.

But your question is beside the point for me. How many of the 60, 70? cycles that you own are going to be remembered or available twenty years from now? Does it matter? I'm not enjoying her cycle because I think it one for the ages. I'm enjoying it because it's fresh, exciting, and something very different from the dozen cycles I already own. And because it was dirt cheap    (Since she isn't my type, her cover photos played no part in my acquiring the set. If it had been priced like a normal new set, I wouldn't own it now. In fact, the main reason I bought it is because your review of the first volume convinced me it was the type of individual interpretation that would appeal to me. I thank you for that.)

Any insinuation that I dislike Ms Lim because of her looks is more than faintly ridiculous.

As is your insinuation that anyone liking Ms Lim (James Rhodes) is overly influenced by her looks. Works both ways, Todd.

But thank you for clearing up the doubts I had about your critical judgment. I didn't think you were one who based their likes or dislikes on physical appearance...but I was beginning to wonder.

Sarge

[Todd]

If she seriously pursues this career, who knows where it will lead. Gould was eccentric too.

Yes, he was.  However, his early Goldbergs are monumental, hinting at what he would become, whether one likes him or not.  Lim's Beethoven is not of that stature.

But your question is beside the point for me. How many of the 60, 70? cycles that you own are going to be remembered or available twenty years from now? Does it matter?

I get that that the question is beside the point, and that at least some cycles will fade into oblivion – though only about 10 or so historical cycles currently elude my grasp, which is pretty remarkable if you think about it, given how spread out they are in time.  But I do doubt that people will be exchanging comments on internet boards about the availability of Lim's cycle, and the best sounding versions, eighty years hence, the way they still do with Schnabel's.

As is your insinuation that anyone liking Ms Lim (James Rhodes) is overly influenced by her looks. Works both ways, Todd.

Not really.  I've made no mention of Viagra anywhere (but, alas, here), or finding one's wife of 30 years suddenly the smoking hot gal she was in her 20s.  Mr Rhodes' comments strike me as both influenced by Ms Lim's looks, and maybe just a little bit sexist.  (I don't really care about the sexist nature of the comments, but I cannot help but notice.)  Stewart Goodyear's playing is at least as energetic as Ms Lim's.  I find it very hard to believe that most men would write something similar in reviewing his playing.  Maybe, maybe.  (Of course, merely acknowledging Grrrl Power and how it may be used for marketing purposes makes me sexist, too, right?  I mean, I'm the one trying to make a buck off Ms Lim's glamour shots.)

[Leon]

A recent, ~ 2005-2007, recording of the sonatas that is not that often mentioned, but deserves high praise is by Andras Schiff.  I was late to this party, but have beeen enjoying his playing very much since I began to listen to these discs.  As far as I know they have not been boxed up and are available as singles from ECM.

If I were asked about new complete cycles, I'd certainly include Schiff in the list.

His playing displays the best, according to my taste, of interpretative choices, clean, but not cold, transparent, but not light - and his technical command of the music is complete.  I am happy that the newer recordings of this music have rejected some of the traditional tempo choices from the past masters, and the younger pianists revisited the original markings, which generally lead to faster tempos - but Schiff does not use the tempo as a way to distinguish his set as I feel Goodyear or Lim, do.  I like his set better than Lewis', who comes across a bit tame in comparison.

Here's some comments from Schiff about this project:

Schiff has just come to the end of a project to record all Beethoven's piano sonatas for the ECM label, a project he put off for years until he felt he was ready.

"For me, these sonatas are the most stupendous journey. They give a complete picture of how Beethoven developed though his creative life."

Preparing these pieces meant first of all paying close attention to the text. Schiff found this could sometimes yield surprises. "Take the famous Moonlight Sonata," he says.

"Beethoven marks it 'senza sordino' [without mutes] throughout, and in piano music that means 'without dampers'. That blurs all the harmonies together, which at that date was a very bold thing to do, and most pianists shy away from it." But not this one.

Another example comes in Beethoven's most titanic piano sonata, the famous Hammerklavier.

"Many people say that the metronome mark of the opening movement is simply impossible, and there are quite a few other pianists, even great ones, who make it seem very heavy and turgid. But it's not impossible, it's just difficult."

Schiff has been around for a while, and ECM is not a traditional classical music label, so his set flew a bit under the radar.  It features ECM's generally very good recorded sound. 

[Todd]

If I were asked about new complete cycles, I'd certainly include Schiff in the list.

I wish I could.  Andras Schiff is one of my favorite living pianists, but he is generally just not a good fit for Beethoven for me.  As far I can recall, this set got mixed reviews from most sources.  That doesn't mean it's not good (for instance, I love Russell Sherman's cycle, but it has received a lot af bad reviews), but I think there are better recent cycles to suggest.

[Leon]

I wish I could.  Andras Schiff is one of my favorite living pianists, but he is generally just not a good fit for Beethoven for me.  As far I can recall, this set got mixed reviews from most sources.  That doesn't mean it's not good (for instance, I love Russell Sherman's cycle, but it has received a lot af bad reviews), but I think there are better recent cycles to suggest.

Judging by your review of Bavouzet, which was certainly complimentary, I still came away thinking we probably prefer different interpretative choices in performances of these works. 

[Todd]

Judging by your review of Bavouzet, which was certainly complimentary, I still came away thinking we probably prefer different interpretative choices in performances of these works.

No doubt of that. 

[Brian]

Not really.  I've made no mention of Viagra anywhere (but, alas, here), or finding one's wife of 30 years suddenly the smoking hot gal she was in her 20s.  Mr Rhodes' comments strike me as both influenced by Ms Lim's looks, and maybe just a little bit sexist.  (I don't really care about the sexist nature of the comments, but I cannot help but notice.)

To be fair, though, that's simply how James Rhodes talks. He's not faking his "excitable common bloke saying wacky off-colour things" persona; that's simply who he is. It's pretty clear from videos of his talks about various composers, or from chatting with him on Twitter for that matter. This is a man who's compared various Beethoven sonatas to illegal drugs.

But certain, uh, physical characteristics have to be playing a role. I certainly don't believe that, had EMI gotten Andras Schiff to do a complete cycle on iTunes for $9.99, it would be selling so well.

[Todd]

This is a man who's compared various Beethoven sonatas to illegal drugs.

That explains it.  He's a less erudite version of Benjamin Zander.

There are various male artists who get the glamour treatment, too - Anderszewski, Schuch, Yundi Li (or, now, just Yundi), Pahud, Dudamel to an extent - and I think it's ridiculous with them, too.