Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Gurn Blanston]

It could be that I listened to the Hammerklavier first - which I find to be excellent.  And in reading some reviews this disc does get high marks.  But I have read some reservations about the earlier installments. 

But there does seem to be a disconnect with what I value and what others on GMG value in performances of Beethoven piano sonatas.  Being a Classical era buff, I prefer these works played as clearly from the Classical temperament and I am not interested in hearing Beethoven played as a Romantic composer.  What I look for firstly is scrupulous adherence to the printed score and markings and technical accuracy.  I much prefer a transparent and restrained approach to violent and stormy playing which comes across to me as exaggerated.

For others what I like strikes them as unimaginative or nothing special

John O'Conor rates very high on my list, but for many he is just an also-ran.

In any event, these works are good enough to withstand many different interpretations.

I could have written this post. 

[DavidRoss]

there does seem to be a disconnect with what I value and what others on GMG value in performances of Beethoven piano sonatas.  Being a Classical era buff, I prefer these works played as clearly from the Classical temperament and I am not interested in hearing Beethoven played as a Romantic composer.  What I look for firstly is scrupulous adherence to the printed score and markings and technical accuracy.  I much prefer a transparent and restrained approach to violent and stormy playing which comes across to me as exaggerated.

In any event, these works are good enough to withstand many different interpretations.

So Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata didn't change between 1795 and 1922? And he was a model of dainty classical decorum with stories about him pounding pianos into toothpicks made up from whole cloth?

I think different pieces exhibit different characters and that no one approach equally suits all. I also think that different approaches may be equally valid regarding the same sonata. This strange way of thinking might explain why I like a number of different performers equally in these works (and other cycles, too).

[Karl Henning]

So Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata didn't change between 1795 and 1922?

LvB from beyond the grave! ; )

[Leon]

So Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata didn't change between 1795 and 1922? And he was a model of dainty classical decorum with stories about him pounding pianos into toothpicks made up from whole cloth?

I think different pieces exhibit different characters and that no one approach equally suits all. I also think that different approaches may be equally valid regarding the same sonata. This strange way of thinking might explain why I like a number of different performers equally in these works (and other cycles, too).

I of course do think that Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata changed and developed - but all that is reflected in the written score and markings (the crescendo under a whole note in the late sonatas notwithstanding). 

I simply prefer a performer who takes fewer liberties with these documentary facts.

And I too enjoy different performers playing these works, and do not think the "perfect" complete set exists, nor will ever exist.

[DavidRoss]

I of course do think that Beethoven's conception of the piano sonata changed and developed - but all that is reflected in the written score and markings (the crescendo under a whole note in the late sonatas notwithstanding). 

I simply prefer a performer who takes fewer liberties with these documentary facts.

And I too enjoy different performers playing these works, and do not think the "perfect" complete set exists, nor will ever exist.

Oh, good -- this gets us to the old "text as notational approximation" or "text as rigid mold" dispute. What do you think of Beethoven's metronome marking for the Hammerklavier's first movement?

I suspect that all of us simply apply different (and inconsistent!) standards to determine which degree of liberty/rigidity is desirable and which excessive. Ms Lim, for instance, seems to take excessive liberties according to the judgment of several GMGers -- yet other listeners seem to regard her approach as an overdue shattering of excessively rigid convention.

My own taste is variable. I used to regard the late Lenny's DGG recordings of Mahler and Sibelius symphonies to wallow in excessive emotionalism. Now I love them. Would I want them to be my only recordings? No. Does liking them prevent also liking Gielen or Vänskä? No.

Thus on some days I feel like hearing Goode play Beethoven. On others, Kovacevich suits better. And sometimes I'd rather hear Kempff. (But I think I'll pass on Ms Lim.)

[Todd]

yet other listeners seem to regard her approach as an overdue shattering of excessively rigid convention.

I've seen some similar comments, but it's not really true.  Russell Sherman and Eric Heidsieck, for instance, could never be described as rigid or conventional, yet both artists deliver Elveebee of a very high caliber, indeed.  It's impossible to say that Georges Pludermacher or Anton Kuerti are conventional, either.  Or Kempff, really.  Or Backhaus, for that matter.  Now that I think about it, what is conventional Beethoven?  No, the problem with Lim is that her LvB sucks.

[Leon]

What do you think of Beethoven's metronome marking for the Hammerklavier's first movement?

I think that it is faster than how many pianists play.  The difference in Schnabel and Kempff is striking.  Kempff was not alone, most of the pianists of his generation took to playing the first movement in a magisterial fashion that I don't find as pleasing as closer to Beethoven's mark.  Happily most younger pianists reflect an intention to take Beethoven's tempo.

I suspect that all of us simply apply different (and inconsistent!) standards to determine which degree of liberty/rigidity is desirable and which excessive.

Speaking for myself, I prefer a performance which does not depart dramatically from the available evidence of how the work was conceived and meant to be played.  Much of that evidence is found in the score and other documentary evidence that survives from the period.  There is still a wide latitude available for performers to make choices. 

Thus on some days I feel like hearing Goode play Beethoven. On others, Kovacevich suits better. And sometimes I'd rather hear Kempff.

Sure.

Now that I think about it, what is conventional Beethoven?

"Conventional" is not a word that comes to mind when when thinking about my "ideal".  But I can say that someone like Russell Sherman or George Pludermacher is not it.

[Todd]

Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

[Bogey]

Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

Buy the set and throw your leftovers on this site for a fire sale?

[Brian]

Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

I've got none of them. So:
1. Buy?
2. Did he simply not record the missing sonatas? I'm particularly sad over the absence of 17-20, 25, and 27...

[Todd]

Buy the set and throw your leftovers on this site for a fire sale?

A possibility.  (My 'to sell'/'discard' piles have grown large.  Action may be needed.)

I've got none of them. So:
1. Buy?
2. Did he simply not record the missing sonatas? I'm particularly sad over the absence of 17-20, 25, and 27...

Your situation is very easy: Buy.  Serkin never recorded all of the sonatas, though he did record some of them multiple times.  Personally, I'd love one box of all his recordings, rather like Gould, etc. 

Serkin is one of the greatest Beethoven pianists.  Buy with confidence.

[Brian]

Your situation is very easy: Buy.  Serkin never recorded all of the sonatas, though he did record some of them multiple times.  Personally, I'd love one box of all his recordings, rather like Gould, etc. 

Serkin is one of the greatest Beethoven pianists.  Buy with confidence.

Thanks. I get a little sad face   when a great Beethoven pianist won't record all of Op 31, but okay - instant purchase it shall be, when it's released.

[Todd]

Thanks. I get a little sad face   when a great Beethoven pianist won't record all of Op 31

Me too, but with Serkin it doesn't matter.  His is heavy-duty, serious, no frilly bullshit Beethoven.

[Brian]

Me too, but with Serkin it doesn't matter.  His is heavy-duty, serious, no frilly bullshit Beethoven.

Since I've been listening to HJ Lim, I need that, fast.

(Well, not badly... any time I put on Lim, I have Gilels at hand for an immediate antidote.)

[Bogey]

A possibility.  (My 'to sell'/'discard' piles have grown large.  Action may be needed.)




Your situation is very easy: Buy.  Serkin never recorded all of the sonatas, though he did record some of them multiple times.  Personally, I'd love one box of all his recordings, rather like Gould, etc. 

Serkin is one of the greatest Beethoven pianists.  Buy with confidence.

Kind of makes it cool that he did not.  Chose the ones that he wanted to nail and did just that.  It would be neat to find an interview of why he skipped some, or maybe he was never asked and really did not care. 

[George]

Hmm.  I've got most, but not all, of the recordings in this set.  What to do?

Where do you see that set listed? I don't see it listed anywhere. I wonder if it's all stereo recordings (likely.)

[George]

Since I've been listening to HJ Lim, I need that, fast.

(Well, not badly... any time I put on Lim, I have Gilels at hand for an immediate antidote.)

I'd say grab all the mono Serkin you can find, as it is noticeably better than his stereo recordings. I posted info here about where to get them: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.0.html

[George]

Kind of makes it cool that he did not.  Chose the ones that he wanted to nail and did just that.

Yup, just like Richter.

[Bogey]

I'd say grab all the mono Serkin you can find, as it is noticeably better than his stereo recordings. I posted info here about where to get them: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10878.0.html

That mono stuff is beautiful.

[Todd]

It would be neat to find an interview of why he skipped some, or maybe he was never asked and really did not care.

He was never a completist in anything.  Didn't need or want to be.  This appears to be a pretty extensive discography.  You can see all the holes.  I just want all the recordings. 

I must say that one of my favorite anecdotes about the young Serkin has to do with when he played a recital and asked what encore to play, and someone suggested the Goldbergs, which he proceeded to play.  Only a handful of people were left in the audience, including, if memory serves, Schnabel.  It may be a false story for all I know, but it is a good one.

Where do you see that set listed? I don't see it listed anywhere. I wonder if it's all stereo recordings (likely.)

HMV Japan, though it will be available everywhere soon enough.

I agree that the mono recordings tend to be better, but the stereo ones are still better than most other pianists' recordings.