Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Lilas Pastia]

Maybe not quite besides the point, as the title of the movement is Largo appassionato.

Good point. But doesn't that strike you as an oxymoron? Tempo-wise, what is an interpreter to make of that?

Arrau is the first that came to mind when marvelling at the extreme differences in approach between Brautigam and Heidsieck. I'm also interested in Brendel, an artist who favors a ruminative but at the same time unsentimental, sometimes clipped phrasing in Beethoven sonatas.

[kishnevi]

Good point. But doesn't that strike you as an oxymoron? Tempo-wise, what is an interpreter to make of that?

I would take the second word as a cue for the overall dynamics, and not the tempo.  Perhaps the fortes would be more fortissimo and the pianos more pianissimo--or perhaps some sort of syncopation that would suggest being off balance.   One can be passionate with deliberation, after all. 

But you've made me curious;  I might make a little listening project of it tonight or tomorrow morning to compare at least some of the various performances I have (Kempff, Brendel III, Lewis, Bavouzet, Schiff, Backhaus, Arrau,  Gulda for the complete cycles; will have to dig through the CD rack to see if any individual recital discs include this one).

[Lilas Pastia]

I would take the second word as a cue for the overall dynamics, and not the tempo.  Perhaps the fortes would be more fortissimo and the pianos more pianissimo--or perhaps some sort of syncopation that would suggest being off balance.   One can be passionate with deliberation, after all. 

But you've made me curious;  I might make a little listening project of it tonight or tomorrow morning to compare at least some of the various performances I have (Kempff, Brendel III, Lewis, Bavouzet, Schiff, Backhaus, Arrau,  Gulda for the complete cycles; will have to dig through the CD rack to see if any individual recital discs include this one).

I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts on this. Of course we're talking one movement only, but this appears to be one of Beethoven's most curious and searching creations. 200 years hence, its interpretation seems to defy conventional interpretive wisdom. Not to mention that your list of interpreters seems like a catalogue of widely different interpreters. BTW what is Brendel III ? I thought he had recorded the 32 only twice.

Thanks in advance, you're under contract  .

[George]

Op. 2/2 - I think three pianists nail this one - Annie Fischer, Schnabel and Hungerford.

[Lilas Pastia]

Well, you want me to declare bankrupcy? I have none of those, and I suppose they only come in expensive Compleat Boxes ? 

Anything on youtube by any chance? 

[kishnevi]

I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts on this. Of course we're talking one movement only, but this appears to be one of Beethoven's most curious and searching creations. 200 years hence, its interpretation seems to defy conventional interpretive wisdom. Not to mention that your list of interpreters seems like a catalogue of widely different interpreters. BTW what is Brendel III ? I thought he had recorded the 32 only twice.

Thanks in advance, you're under contract  .

Brendel recorded the New Testament twice for Philips, once in analog and once in all digital, which is the one I have.   The analog cycle is available in a box with the concertos, and is the source of two Philips Duos that I know of--one of "Favorite" sonatas (ie, the usual suspects), which I don't have,  and one with the late sonatas, which I have.  The digital cycle is available as a box set, but I don't know of any smaller selection made from it.  A lot of people seem to prefer the analog, but my OCD does not extend far enough to making me purchase TWO complete cycles by the same pianist.

Meanwhile,  on another tangent,   I now listening to the second volume of F F Guy's cycle in progress.  The Waldstein just ended, and I have to say I don't remember any performance of the last movement being as intensely lyrical and intensely soft as Guy's.  I'll probably have to do a comparison of that one before long to see if my memory is at fault.

BTW, I see I listed Bavouzet as a cycle.  He is of course still a cycle in progress, not a completed one.

Well, you want me to declare bankrupcy? I have none of those, and I suppose they only come in expensive Compleat Boxes ? 

Anything on youtube by any chance? 

don't worry, I don't have any of them either.

[Wakefield]

Brendel recorded the New Testament twice for Philips, once in analog and once in all digital, which is the one I have.   The analog cycle is available in a box with the concertos, and is the source of two Philips Duos that I know of--one of "Favorite" sonatas (ie, the usual suspects), which I don't have,  and one with the late sonatas, which I have.  The digital cycle is available as a box set, but I don't know of any smaller selection made from it.  A lot of people seem to prefer the analog, but my OCD does not extend far enough to making me purchase TWO complete cycles by the same pianist.

I'm sure a fair amount of people here has all his three complete cycles. I have them and I'm not even a Beethovenian! I'm a Brendelian, though. 

[George]

Well, you want me to declare bankrupcy? I have none of those, and I suppose they only come in expensive Compleat Boxes ? 

No, they are all available (or at least were) in single or double CD sets.

Anything on youtube by any chance? 

Not sure, as I don't even look there when I am seeking classical music to listen to.

[Mandryka]

I love the way that Hans Richter-Haaser plays this work.

Yes tremendous. I like this type of strong performance a lot. It would be good to hear Richter-Haaser play Haydn, but I don't thin anything exists on record.

I want to listen again to Pollini's.

[Fred]

Is there a prize for sitting through all 28:43 minutes of Korstick playing the Adagio of the hammerklavier?  I must say that, despite being of an impatient disposition and liking my Beethoven highly caffeinated, I as pretty impressed.  Somehow he puts enough variety of tone and pacing into it to stop it being a dull trudge.  Anyone else listened to it.   

[Mandryka]

I've only heard the first movement, which gave me the impression of being slighly pressed, not letting the silences be heard, Pollini style. It's not a style I much like, but what you say about the adagio is intriguing.

[Sergeant Rock]

Is there a prize for sitting through all 28:43 minutes of Korstick playing the Adagio of the hammerklavier?  I must say that, despite being of an impatient disposition and liking my Beethoven highly caffeinated, I as pretty impressed.  Somehow he puts enough variety of tone and pacing into it to stop it being a dull trudge.  Anyone else listened to it.

I just heard it for the first time (the disc has been sitting in the "to listen to pile" for several weeks), and have lived long enough to tell the tale  I need to hear it again, but it did not make an favorable initial impression. I think he loses the musical thread; it becomes disjointed at this pace. For a caffeine jolt, I'm playing Lim's Adagio. At 12:50 it couldn't be more different, and I much prefer the music at this speed (not much faster than Gulda actually).

I've only heard the first movement, which gave me the impression of being slighly pressed not letting the silences be heard....

That was my impression too.

Sarge

[Mandryka]

I listened to the whole Korstick performance once, while having lunch, in the garden, through a portable dock via spotify, so these comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. But . . .

I thought the adagio was what distinguished it from being just another Hammerklavier performance with no real artistic reason for existing on record. I didn't have a problem listening to the whole movement despite the extreme length.

I thought that, contrary to all expectations, the passionate quality remained, partly because of the dynamic contrasts (though he doesn't have an enormous dynamic range), and mainly From  his sense of the drama, the tension, between the voices. He has a great way of sectioning the movement, you know exactly where you are at all times, and that I think prevents the thing falling apart at slow speeds. Melodically, I never felt that the tunes were lost because they were played so slowly, but others may be more melodically aware than me.

And obviously the tempo gives it quirkiness value and, more importantly, is very revealing of detail. When he does speed up, in that brief moment just before the end where the music almost falls apart, a pre-echo of the fugue maybe, he's outstanding, unforgettable. And for me that three seconds justifies the whole 20+minutes. What I'm not sure about is whether there are any other payoffs, or whether they're payoffs enough for more sensible listeners than me.

In short, I liked the adagio tremendously and I think it's a really valuable performance.

The first two movements seemed less interesting, just another fast op106. I want to listen to the fugue again before commenting, except to say it sounded very interesting.

Does anyone have the booklet? Does he say why he took the adagio so slowly. Strange that, given that I, II and IV are taken fast.

Oh and by the way, thanks Fred for drawing my attention to this one. It was fun.

[Fred]

The booklet has an interview with Korstick in which the interviewer mentions this is the slowest adagio in recording history!   In response Korstick says that, in relation to the first movement and last movement he's just following the metronome markings which he thinks are correct (having regard to the "allegro" marking).  Further, if Beethoven had wanted the pianist to be careful in these movements he would have written Allegro Moderato. However, he seems to think that the metronome marking for the adagio is wrong.  Beethoven heard the music too fast in his head.  Indeed, if he'd intended it to be played at the metronome markings he would have labelled it Andante con moto.
Further, Korstick claims he recorded the adagio in one take!
Anyway, I love the first movement.  I think Rosen said that in the hammerklavier Beethoven creates orchestral effects by making the pianist strain to achieve something he can't quite attain (or something like that).  The pianist has to sound like he is wrestling with the music - and losing.

[pbarach]

Rosen didn't have the technique when he recorded #29 to do anything OTHER than strain.

[Mandryka]

Here's my favourite Hammerklavier I (Yudina 1954). The timing is slightly slower than  Korstick and somehow the phrasing is more interesting, there's less of a feeling of rush:

http://www.youtube.com/v/aQvsvr-jL4E

Richter-Haaser is good in it too, but he's not on youtube. And Annie Fischer.

Has anyone heard the Op 106 here?

[Fred]

Korstick also makes the point in the booklet that a lot of people play the first movement of the Hammerklavier slowly because (frankly) that is all they can do.  Must say I've been pretty bowled over by what I've heard of his Beethoven.  Absolutely love the arietta. Builds to a great explosion of riotous joy in the "boogie-woogie" variation (which most pianists just trudge through carefully) without which the movement makes no sense at all.  I often get annoyed listening to Beethoven sonatas because I know that technical limitations are guiding the interpretive choices.  But Korstick sounds like he can do anything he likes - and does.

P.S.  Rosen's first Hammerklavier is dull as ditch-water.  But his second? third? are pretty titanic and worth a listen. 

[Mandryka]

The Hammerklavier here inspred Berio to write some music for Lucchessini. I've been playing it a lot and quite franckly I don't know what to make of it. I wonder if anyone else knows it.



Berio's choice of pianists is interesting. He's also been impressed by Francesco Tristano Schlime.

[xochitl]

i just heard the hammerklavier with backhaus [decca cycle], and all i can say is wow

when it started my heart sunk because of the measured tempo, especially since ive been listening to brautigam a lot, but the man convinced me that other pianists play this too fast [lol i know].  some very interesting tempo relationships between subjects/transitions...and the depth of tone!  when the first mvmt was over i went 'ok. you win this one'

the second mvmt was more within my parameters of acceptable energy for a 'classic recording' and had some very nice surprises

the adagio on the other hand had me sit up and take notice.  i heard none of the tragic weepiness that almost always reduces me to a babbling mess for 15 minutes.  here it sounded curiously modern, angular, reserved but oh so dignified and utterly beautiful.

and then the finale rolled by.  oh god.  how is pianism like this even possible?  i never thought i would hear this monster of a movement played in a way i could not criticise.  the speed.  the power.  the intellect.  all i could do when it was over was nod..."and everyone said 'amen' "

[Mandryka]

i just heard the hammerklavier with backhaus [decca cycle], and all i can say is wow

when it started my heart sunk because of the measured tempo, especially since ive been listening to brautigam a lot, but the man convinced me that other pianists play this too fast [lol i know].  some very interesting tempo relationships between subjects/transitions...and the depth of tone!  when the first mvmt was over i went 'ok. you win this one'

the second mvmt was more within my parameters of acceptable energy for a 'classic recording' and had some very nice surprises

the adagio on the other hand had me sit up and take notice.  i heard none of the tragic weepiness that almost always reduces me to a babbling mess for 15 minutes.  here it sounded curiously modern, angular, reserved but oh so dignified and utterly beautiful.

and then the finale rolled by.  oh god.  how is pianism like this even possible?  i never thought i would hear this monster of a movement played in a way i could not criticise.  the speed.  the power.  the intellect.  all i could do when it was over was nod..."and everyone said 'amen' "

I can't remember the stereo Hammerklavier (is that the Decca one?)  but I know the mono studio recording  well, and I'd say much the same for the adagio there. I also don't mind the pace of the allegro at all, I think it;'s a positively good thing to play it like that in fact.

Even the mono was made relatively late in his career. What is the earliest Backhaus Hammerklavier on record? Is there one earlier than the studio mono one?