Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Wakefield]

Schnabel comes from Clementi-Hummel-Czerny-Leschetitzky(Polish School) line, Hungerford comes from Wieck F.-Wieck C.-Freidberg(German School) line

The "labels" (Polish and German) for these schools/genealogies are a kind of joke, right?

[prémont]

Schnabel comes from Clementi-Hummel-Czerny-Leschetitzky(Polish School) line, Hungerford comes from Wieck F.-Wieck C.-Freidberg(German School) line

How are these different schools reflected in the playing of Scnabel and Hungerford?

[Wakefield]

Not at all. What do you mean?

I mean it's not easy to think of Clementi, Hummel and Czerny as pianists of Polish tradition, even if you only consider the features described by you.

Anyway, one thing is sure: The habit of thinking the history of Art in terms of "schools" is typically French. 

[The new erato]

The habit of thinking the history of Art in terms of "schools" is typically French. 

Are you French?

[prémont]

I don't know or, rather, I don't care because Hungerford is not a pianist I care for. But pedagogically German school involves more elbow, playing is more forceful and serious, Backhaus and Kempff. Polish is more close to Russian with body and shoulders more in the works. Playing is intuitive, emotional and more expressive, Rachmaninoff, Gilels. French school is more about close fingers. Playing is elegant and precision is important. I have an academic list of who is whose teacher-student since Bach JS... Too much info for "labels"

Maybe you can listen to and tell us what the differences are if you have their recordings?

This subdivision is too categorical and arbitrary to be useful,- well perhaps in the educational sense, but not in the musical sense.

[Wakefield]

They are not. The one that I put Polish next to is Polish...
It's not a a habit or thinking. It's knowledge and a fact. What you try to impose as "sure thing" is a wrong "opinion"... You are talking about history of art, I am not, and I was not. It's piano education...

I don't agree, Annie.

If you put "Clementi-Hummel-Czerny-Leschetitzky(Polish School)", the expression" Polish School" is referring all the chain of names separated by hyphens. This conclusion is not modified by the fact that you omit the space between "Leschetitzky" and "(Polish School)."

If you meant: "This guy was a Polish", the expression "Polish School" is a bit grandiloquent. If not, what it means? Maybe "this guy studied in the Polish brach of the Clementi-Hummel-Czerny School"?

Classifications are never "facts", but only a sort of help for our weak memory. If a particular training doesn't have influence on the artistry or style of a performer, it's just an anecdote without musical importance.

[Fred]

TODD - Re El Bacha, it does look like a new set.  Timings very different. The old one was Forlane. This one is Mirare.  9cds vs 10cds.

[Brian]

Hey, Fred's right. Track timings for the 1996 recording of Op. 31. New track timings for full cycle. Op. 31 No. 1 was 21 minutes even in the '90s, now it's almost 24. Looks like almost every track got substantially slower.

[Todd]

Hey, Fred's right. Track timings for the 1996 recording of Op. 31. New track timings for full cycle. Op. 31 No. 1 was 21 minutes even in the '90s, now it's almost 24. Looks like almost every track got substantially slower.

One the one hand, the set is available for a low price in France starting 9/10 (28 Euro); on the other hand, El Bacha's first cycle is one of the weakest of the 70 I've heard.  What to do, especially with Kempff III beckoning?

[Brian]

One the one hand, the set is available for a low price in France starting 9/10 (28 Euro); on the other hand, El Bacha's first cycle is one of the weakest of the 70 I've heard.  What to do, especially with Kempff III beckoning?

Stop going to the grocery, I guess.

[RebLem]

Annie Fischer and Bruce Hungerford.  You don't need anyone else.

[aquablob]

So are we naming our two favorite cycles, now?

For insightful playing and contrast in general approach: Kempff (50s) and Gulda (60s)

Interestingly, I've read a few opinions (I can't remember where, and not necessarily at GMG) that lump Kempff and Gulda together as having similar approaches, but I've always felt that the opposite is true.

[George]

So are we naming our two favorite cycles, now?

For insightful playing and contrast in general approach: Kempff (50s) and Gulda (60s)

Interestingly, I've read a few opinions (I can't remember where, and not necessarily at GMG) that lump Kempff and Gulda together as having similar approaches, but I've always felt that the opposite is true.

Yeah, Gulda and Kempff approach this music very differently. At the least, they are way more different than they are alike.

[Todd]

My copy of El Bacha's new cycle arrived.  It's almost hot off the presses, having been recorded between April 2012 and January of this year.  The pianist opted for a Bechstein.  Think I'll start in on the cycle tonight.

[SonicMan46]

My copy of El Bacha's new cycle arrived.  It's almost hot off the presses, having been recorded between April 2012 and January of this year.  The pianist opted for a Bechstein.  Think I'll start in on the cycle tonight.

Hi Todd - looking forward to your comments!  BUT, if purchased how should his name be entered into a database?      Dave

[Brian]

Hi Todd - looking forward to your comments!  BUT, if purchased how should his name be entered into a database?      Dave

"El Bacha" is the surname. You may also have seen Naxos CDs dedicated to a composer with the surname "El Khoury." It's a different way of spelling/transliterating "al-", so it could have been al-Bacha had the pianist come from a different country with a slightly different Arabic tradition.

As for Abdel Rahman; all Abdel and Abdul names are religious names; Abdel/Abdul means "slave of the" and "Rahman" basically means benevolent God. It's kind of a compound first name, and is sometimes spelled as one word. Same goes for names like Abdel Aziz, Abdullah (slave of God), or Abdurrahim. Nobody would ever be named just plain Abdel/Abdul; that would be like if your last name was just "Son" instead of "Johnson."

[SonicMan46]

"El Bacha" is the surname. You may also have seen Naxos CDs dedicated to a composer with the surname "El Khoury." It's a different way of spelling/transliterating "al-", so it could have been al-Bacha had the pianist come from a different country with a slightly different Arabic tradition.

As for Abdel Rahman; all Abdel and Abdul names are religious names; Abdel/Abdul means "slave of the" and "Rahman" basically means benevolent God. It's kind of a compound first name, and is sometimes spelled as one word. Same goes for names like Abdel Aziz, Abdullah (slave of God), or Abdurrahim. Nobody would ever be named just plain Abdel/Abdul; that would be like if your last name was just "Son" instead of "Johnson."

Thanks Brian for the detailed description - Dave

[aquablob]

I've just finished slowly making my way through Louis Lortie's set. Really excellent playing throughout and thoughtful interpretations. He's all about "color," I'd say, and even in more powerful passages he goes for a beautiful tone (which might not be to everybody's liking). That's not to say that this is wimpy Beethoven, though.

One thing that struck me about his playing, especially in the earlier sonatas, is the subtlety of his left hand—it's always doing something interesting, even where it's really straightforward accompaniment. I'm thinking particularly of moments like the trio of the third movement of Op. 7, where the accompanimental figure is a quick repeated arpeggio.

Incidentally I had similar thoughts about Daniel Barenboim's left hand on his DG cycle from the '80s. With that set, though, I was especially struck by passages where the left hand plays chords. Barenboim always seems to hold those left-hand chords for just the right duration, and he does such a nice job of bringing out the "tops" of the chords to convey a sense of a secondary (or primary, as the case may be) melody in the middle register.

[jlaurson]

L.v. Beethoven
Piano Sonatas opp. 101, 106
M.Kodama
PentaTone SACD
German link - UK link

There are several very notable highlights in this cycle and this might just be one of them, too.

Someone has to be the musician in the family, after all.

[jlaurson]

My copy of El Bacha's new cycle arrived.  It's almost hot off the presses, having been recorded between April 2012 and January of this year.  The pianist opted for a Bechstein.  Think I'll start in on the cycle tonight.

Thanks for the info!!! Cheers, jfl