Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[Mandryka]

Kempff omits the repeat in the first movement.

Taub sounds very very good you know. I'm listening to it for the first time right now.

[aquablob]

But her Adagio is so nice for those times when you must hear a Hammerklavier but just don't have all day to sit through a normally paced performance 

Looking at Hammerklaviers I own, I come to the same conclusion as others: Gulda is the only one who comes close to meeting your requirements.

Korstick                   9:08  2:24  28:42  11:09
Gulda                      9:30  2:20  13:44  11:23
Solomon                10:08  2:30  22:20  12:37
HJ Lim                    10:24  2:43  12:50  11:23
Guy                       10:38  2:49  17:03  12:55
Rosen                    10:40  2:28  18:23  11:48
Pollini                     10:44  2:42  17:11  12:14
Arrau                     10:48  2:30  20:26  11:43
Annie Fischer          11:01  2:53  19:51  11:25
Gould                    11:03  2:48  20:42  13:33
Backhaus               11:45  2:38  16:32  11:01
Gilels                     12:24  2:53  19:51  13:38
Bareboim (EMI)       13:13  3:04  21:52  12:50

Sarge

I'll add a plug for Schiff. Obviously his first movement isn't as fast as Gulda's or some others', but his phrasing and rhythmic "snappiness" make it feel faster than it is. Stylistically he's much closer to Gulda than to Gilels here. And in the slow movement I prefer Schiff to Gulda, who does rush through it a bit.

Schiff                  11:07  2:42  15:29  12:51

[PaulSC]

Goodyear    9:17   2:42   14:56   10:35
Worth a listen...

[0spinboson]

Try Hans Richter-Haaser

A very odd, and rather off-topic question, but would you mind checking the compression level for the files you have? I have flacs of the 2010 EMI France release, but they compress terribly considering it's piano solo music: average bitrate is 600, while the norm for the entire subset of beethoven piano sonata music in my collection (2 weeks worth of music) is 445kbps, and performances from that period (~4.5 days) average 500kbps. I'm a bit worried the files I have are transcodes from an mp3 source..

[jlaurson]

At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.



But listening to another new arrival, Paavali Jumppanen's Hammerklavier instead, right now... Very good op.2/3 on the preceding disc!

[Pat B]

A very odd, and rather off-topic question, but would you mind checking the compression level for the files you have? I have flacs of the 2010 EMI France release, but they compress terribly considering it's piano solo music: average bitrate is 600, while the norm for the entire subset of beethoven piano sonata music in my collection (2 weeks worth of music) is 445kbps, and performances from that period (~4.5 days) average 500kbps. I'm a bit worried the files I have are transcodes from an mp3 source..

I wouldn't think an mp3 transcode would increase the flac ratio (though I haven't done any experimentation). What's the noise level like, compared to the others?

[Mandryka]

A very odd, and rather off-topic question, but would you mind checking the compression level for the files you have? I have flacs of the 2010 EMI France release, but they compress terribly considering it's piano solo music: average bitrate is 600, while the norm for the entire subset of beethoven piano sonata music in my collection (2 weeks worth of music) is 445kbps, and performances from that period (~4.5 days) average 500kbps. I'm a bit worried the files I have are transcodes from an mp3 source..

Compression rate 57%
Sample rate 44.1 KHz
Sample size 16 bit
Bitrate 1,411 kbps

That's for the first movement

[0spinboson]

Compression rate 57%
Sample rate 44.1 KHz
Sample size 16 bit
Bitrate 1,411 kbps

That's for the first movement

Hm, same as here then. Wonder why it's so hard to compress (the whole set is like this).

I wouldn't think an mp3 transcode would increase the flac ratio (though I haven't done any experimentation). What's the noise level like, compared to the others?

No noise present. I'm not sure why I thought that; I tested it a bit and the resulting files indeed only become smaller.

[trung224]

But her Adagio is so nice for those times when you must hear a Hammerklavier but just don't have all day to sit through a normally paced performance 

Looking at Hammerklaviers I own, I come to the same conclusion as others: Gulda is the only one who comes close to meeting your requirements.

Korstick                   9:08  2:24  28:42  11:09
Gulda                      9:30  2:20  13:44  11:23
Solomon                10:08  2:30  22:20  12:37
HJ Lim                    10:24  2:43  12:50  11:23
Guy                       10:38  2:49  17:03  12:55
Rosen                    10:40  2:28  18:23  11:48
Pollini                     10:44  2:42  17:11  12:14
Arrau                     10:48  2:30  20:26  11:43
Annie Fischer          11:01  2:53  19:51  11:25
Gould                    11:03  2:48  20:42  13:33
Backhaus               11:45  2:38  16:32  11:01
Gilels                     12:24  2:53  19:51  13:38
Barenboim (EMI)     13:13  3:04  21:52  12:50

Sarge

I think Yudina too 10:32 2:39 13:19 11:57. Her reading is not only powerful, but also original.

[Pat B]

At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.

Congratulations!

I have vowed -- er, contemplated -- to limit my Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles to 2 (Gulda/Amadeo and Kempff/DG mono), and I think if I do get another, then it should a less traditional choice... and yet, your advocacy of Backhaus continues to intrigue me. Let us know what you think of the mono.

I'm also curious about lighter-weight ways to check out his Beethoven. amazon shows three live releases:
14,29 1956/Hänssler
12,14,17,26 1968/Orfeo
15,18,21,30 1969/Audite (with a presumably anachronistic cover photo)

Is anybody familiar with any of these?

[George]

At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.



But listening to another new arrival, Paavali Jumppanen's Hammerklavier instead, right now... Very good op.2/3 on the preceding disc!

Where did you locate that, Jens?

[aquablob]

I have vowed -- er, contemplated -- to limit my Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles to 2 (Gulda/Amadeo and Kempff/DG mono)

Probably my two favorite sets.

[amw]

Gulda's probably my favorite in Op. 106. He plays with great clarity and momentum in the outer movements.

Having listened to Gulda's Hammerklavier I quite like it. Very stripped down—no tricks and very little "interpretation", just really solid playing of the notes Beethoven wrote, without trying to mitigate the harshness (this is a composer who made his pianos rattle in loud bits). There's very little pedal, which I also like. I prefer my adagios to have a better balance of sostenuto and appassionato (this one errs on the latter side, as the timing may suggest), but the scherzo, on the other hand, is perfect. I'll re-listen to the outer movements but when listening to them I didn't get the impression of them being significantly under tempo. (He's only slightly faster than Badura-Skoda on Astrée, which I have for comparison, but PBS sounds a lot slower.)

Possibly a new favourite, in Op. 106 and 101 at least. I sampled some of the earlier ones in the cycle (from the Appassionata onwards) and was not as impressed, but I might look into acquiring the last three for comparison—imagine his approach will be very different, probably more "avant-garde"*, than Kempff's (the other MI pianist I have for those).

I am curious about Goodyear, but the NML 64kbps stream has dreadful sound quality. I don't know whether having the CD would improve that very much since it sounds like simply bad engineering. Of the "slower" ones I will look into Schiff (whose first WTC is my "reference") as well as Rosen, because of his very thoughtful and informed writings on the sonata (and because I like his Diabellis).

* From having heard 3/16 of the Gulda cycle once, I can state with very little confidence that it is probably like what an Arditti Quartet or Quatuor Diotima cycle of the Beethoven quartets would sound like.

† Notes apply to the 1967 set. I don't know the other two. I'm not a weirdo like you lot. ;P

[Brian]

I am curious about Goodyear, but the NML 64kbps stream has dreadful sound quality. I don't know whether having the CD would improve that very much since it sounds like simply bad engineering.

Can confirm: the Goodyear set is one of the most poorly-engineered Beethoven cycles of the last 10-15 years. It's a pity since he's such an engaging performer.

[aquablob]

Having listened to Gulda's Hammerklavier I quite like it. Very stripped down—no tricks and very little "interpretation", just really solid playing of the notes Beethoven wrote, without trying to mitigate the harshness (this is a composer who made his pianos rattle in loud bits). There's very little pedal, which I also like. I prefer my adagios to have a better balance of sostenuto and appassionato (this one errs on the latter side, as the timing may suggest), but the scherzo, on the other hand, is perfect. I'll re-listen to the outer movements but when listening to them I didn't get the impression of them being significantly under tempo. (He's only slightly faster than Badura-Skoda on Astrée, which I have for comparison, but PBS sounds a lot slower.)

Possibly a new favourite, in Op. 106 and 101 at least. I sampled some of the earlier ones in the cycle (from the Appassionata onwards) and was not as impressed, but I might look into acquiring the last three for comparison—imagine his approach will be very different, probably more "avant-garde"*, than Kempff's (the other MI pianist I have for those).

I am curious about Goodyear, but the NML 64kbps stream has dreadful sound quality. I don't know whether having the CD would improve that very much since it sounds like simply bad engineering. Of the "slower" ones I will look into Schiff (whose first WTC is my "reference") as well as Rosen, because of his very thoughtful and informed writings on the sonata (and because I like his Diabellis).

* From having heard 3/16 of the Gulda cycle once, I can state with very little confidence that it is probably like what an Arditti Quartet or Quatuor Diotima cycle of the Beethoven quartets would sound like.

† Notes apply to the 1967 set. I don't know the other two. I'm not a weirdo like you lot. ;P

I likewise only know the '67 Gulda, and I agree with you entirely about his Op. 106 scherzo and his Op. 101—the rhythmic precision he brings to the second movement of the A-major sonata was a revelation when I first heard it.

Gulda's Op. 57 isn't among my favorites, either, but I definitely recommend his Op. 111, which is a tour de force.

[Ken B]

Can confirm: the Goodyear set is one of the most poorly-engineered Beethoven cycles of the last 10-15 years. It's a pity since he's such an engaging performer.

And Canadian.

Lortie, Hamelin, Hewitt, Beausejour,  Goodyear. Quite a presence these days.

[amw]

Can confirm: the Goodyear set is one of the most poorly-engineered Beethoven cycles of the last 10-15 years. It's a pity since he's such an engaging performer.

Yes, that is a shame. I'll have to look for live bootlegs on youtube or something.

I likewise only know the '67 Gulda, and I agree with you entirely about his Op. 106 scherzo and his Op. 101—the rhythmic precision he brings to the second movement of the A-major sonata was a revelation when I first heard it.

Gulda's Op. 57 isn't among my favorites, either, but I definitely recommend his Op. 111, which is a tour de force.

I wouldn't say either Gulda's 101 or 106 was revelatory, but then I'm probably not going to be having revelations anytime soon about music I know so well. Will check out 111. That one can be tricky to pull off.

[jlaurson]

At long last: Backhausen's Mono Beethoven.



But listening to another new arrival, Paavali Jumppanen's Hammerklavier instead, right now... Very good op.2/3 on the preceding disc!

Congratulations!

I have vowed -- er, contemplated -- to limit my Beethoven Piano Sonata cycles to 2 (Gulda/Amadeo and Kempff/DG mono), and I think if I do get another, then it should a less traditional choice... and yet, your advocacy of Backhaus continues to intrigue me. Let us know what you think of the mono.

So far so good, but my love for Backhaus stems from the stereo cycle. All the same, I've talked with several pianists and just a few days ago with Buchbinder who knew and worked a little with both Kempff and Backhaus and he, as others who knew them, suggested that he liked early Backhaus better than late Backhaus. So when I found the cycle on Amazon Japan (link already included in the updated Beethoven Sonata Survey: Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles | Part 1, 1935 - 1969), I didn't any longer resist. I wouldn't have trusted the "I have it, it's super rare, so therefore it's amazing" raves alone. :-)

[Mandryka]

Re Backhaus, it would be quite amusing to explore this a bit more since there seem to be widely different views around here.

JLAURSON - so far so good
PREMONT - stereo is better
TODD - mono is better
MANDRYKA - mono is often better, and has nice warm truthful sound.
GEORGE - they're pretty well as good/bad as each other except for sound. Stereo sounds better

It's the slow movements in the stereo which bug me, because they're sometimes just not at all poetic. Try the slow movement of op 2/1.

[George]

So far so good, but my love for Backhaus stems from the stereo cycle. All the same, I've talked with several pianists and just a few days ago with Buchbinder who knew and worked a little with both Kempff and Backhaus and he, as others who knew them, suggested that he liked early Backhaus better than late Backhaus.

Sure, but early Backhaus is 1908-1928 or so. The mono set is 1950-1954. The stereo from 1958-1969.

If we divide his career into 3 20 year periods, it looks like this. (note that both sets fall in the late period, though the mono is earlier and IMO a bit better.)

Early - 1908-1928
Mid -   1928-1948
Late -  1949-1969