How does one have time to explore?

[Jo498]

I listen to 99% classical or so. I might miss some worthy pieces of popular music, but even as a teenager I never was into that kind of stuff. I am not sure if I have enough common ground for aesthetic discussion with someone who while granting that the music from the second video above is (obviously) trivial says that it gives enjoyment or aesthetic experience somehow comparable to "Kommt, ihr Töchter".

The video/music may have to be understood ironically, but my reaction is not only boredom or indifference, it's actually closer to disgust. (Because I really detest most of the popular culture that is celebrated there. Even if it is meant to be ironic, it is celebrating a shallow culture and society that is really getting on my nerves.)

Sure, singers like Tori Amos is a different case. I listened to some of her music 10 or 15 years ago, but do not remember much about it; it didn't grab me sufficiently to become a fan, to each his own I guess.

So to find time for classical, I simply cut most of the other stuff, including most movies (I have a hard time understanding how grown ups can read Marvel hero comic books and watch those movies), TV, computer games etc. I have a few "guilty pleasures", but not too many to distract from things I do find immeasurably more fascinating and fulfilling.

[Rinaldo]

.. it sounds like total crap to my ears, especially in light of your first selection.

Which is perfectly fine. Yet it's very good music by one of the top young artists in the pop universe - the beat is strong, the childlike melody is both catchy and hauntingly melancholic (it's a song about sexual assault, believe it or not), the lo-fi sound of the synths appeals to people who have a fondness for that aesthetic.

It just 'speaks' in a language that is a completely foreign to you, just as Stockhausen can be foreign ("..like total crap") to people who lack the ability / knowledge / context to appreciate his music. Which can or cannot be acquired - sometimes musical taste can be an impermeable barrier, sometimes it's a generational thing ("What's that racket? Jimi who?").

[Florestan]

hauntingly melancholic (it's a song about sexual assault, believe it or not)

Is she melancholic about her being raped in the past, or what?

[Jo498]

Unless one never enters a public space, switches on a TV, radio etc. one has some forced familiarity with the cheap pop aesthetic of such a song. One might not appreciate that the synthie sounds are "retro" or whatever, sure.

But I do not have to know that the artificial taste of some soft drink is designed to evoke some retro drink (like cherry coke of the '80ties) to find the taste disgusting and objectively inferior to fresh spring water, orange juice or red wine.

And just because one can make a field of study of any subset of popular culture, collect knowledge about comic book heroes etc. does not make it a worthy pursuit.

[The new erato]

How does James have time to call everything he has no appreciation for "total crap"?

He must have found the expression on wikipedia!

[71 dB]

I was listening to Beethoven's Op. 55 for deeper experience. Now I'm back. 

You're not going to get it within the limitations of pop music.

It's not for you to say what I get from pop music. It's not your business and it should not concern you. I'm not telling you to listen to pop. I am saying you are simply wrong saying pop music has little to offer to anyone. You just can't avoid your snobbery and you are afraid to admit pop music can have it's merits.

[The new erato]

I dont understand why a Schubert Lied can be high art, while a song by Kate & Anne McGarrigle isn't.

Listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Enc8KEzdYY

I don't have time for much popular culture, much of which is shallow and focused on attentiongrabbng (so what else is new?), but it seems very shortsighted to write off an whole genre because of this. Even in Mozart's time it was so, but most of it has been forgotten. And make n mistake of ut; those guys were aiming for popularity as well. No listeners meant no food on the table.

[The new erato]

Again, who said this ? I certainly didn't, maybe someone else did. All I was saying is that I had to venture beyond pop music eventually because I felt "there had to be more to the art" etc ..

Well, that was what happened to me. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally listen to what I consider good popular music and have no regrets about it. Without good popular music to feed my musical interest n a period, I probably would have lost interest in music all together.

[Ken B]

I am not going to pick through the thread for quotes but some of you seem to be saying music cannot be art. I think few would dispute my distinction between Guernica and Madonna pinups. So, if painting can be art, why not music?
Please note I am not identifying classical and art here, or denying that any of the genres people who run record stores bin things into can be art. I am noticing that some of the statements here comprise a flat denial music can be art. That is a totally diifferent issue from whether all X music is crap or none of X is art.

[Jo498]

I don't think many people would dispute that music can be art. The point rather seems to be that the reaction of each listener is completely subjective and that it is equally likely to get great aesthetic experiences from Bach and from Britney Spears, respectively. Or if not from some top 20 half-naked girlie from some "serious" popular music.
But note that almost everyone not living like a hermit does encounter "serious" popular music like Dylan, Amos, whatever. Some of us still think that most of it is, although a valid artistical expression (compared to pre-fabricated dumb stuff for teenagers) and sometimes worth one's while, rather restricted in range of expression and aesthetic interest compared to classical music.
And that this is a fact about the music which causes the reactions of the listener, not something entirely dependent on the listener and their taste.

[Rinaldo]

Gimme a break.

No prob, old man.

[Madiel]

Where did I say that? This discussion is really becoming a waste of my time.

You italicised and emphasised 'setting' words to music. Was that not relevant to the point you thought you were making?

[Madiel]

I don't think many people would dispute that music can be art. The point rather seems to be that the reaction of each listener is completely subjective and that it is equally likely to get great aesthetic experiences from Bach and from Britney Spears, respectively. Or if not from some top 20 half-naked girlie from some "serious" popular music.
But note that almost everyone not living like a hermit does encounter "serious" popular music like Dylan, Amos, whatever. Some of us still think that most of it is, although a valid artistical expression (compared to pre-fabricated dumb stuff for teenagers) and sometimes worth one's while, rather restricted in range of expression and aesthetic interest compared to classical music.
And that this is a fact about the music which causes the reactions of the listener, not something entirely dependent on the listener and their taste.

How is it 'a fact about the music'?

Do you not realise that this board occasionally explodes into arguments about particular periods, styles or composers of classical music? Have you seen what happens when someone says that Bach is better than Mozart or Mozart is better than Haydn, and tries to present it as a "fact"?

There's nothing problematic about finding something of limited aesthetic interest. I can happily provide you with a list of music I find of limited aesthetic interest, and it will have both classical composers and pop musicians on it.  It's only problematic when I start reasoning that because I find Liszt frequently boring, it is a fact about the music of Liszt that it is boring and that everyone else would know this 'fact' if they paid attention. Because mysteriously enough, a considerable number of people appear to continue to find Liszt highly interesting and enjoyable.

I'm fairly certain it's a 'fact' that Liszt employs a suite of techniques and expression that is partially different from the suite of techniques and expression of another composer. But my reaction to Liszt's music is based on my relative valuing of his methods, not on the intrinsic value of his methods. To rate his style as inherently restricted just because it usually feels me to like he's banging on with endless bombast is a basic category error, mixing objective 'this is what he's doing' with subjective 'I don't like what he's doing'. When he may in fact be realising his own goals and intentions perfectly.

[Florestan]

I dont understand why a Schubert Lied can be high art, while a song by Kate & Anne McGarrigle isn't.

Listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Enc8KEzdYY

Your point is valid. The only meaningful comparison that can be made, if need be, is between songs and the Lieder. And in this respect there are plenty of songs who can stand the comparison pretty well on all levels: melody, harmony, words.

These three set to music poems by famous Romanian poets.

https://www.youtube.com/v/GMQ5QMAg9nQhttps://www.youtube.com/v/OdNL0VrrJUIhttps://www.youtube.com/v/RaG-pniUMQk

In English, these three are real gems.

https://www.youtube.com/v/C1k8B-qw040https://www.youtube.com/v/QWhdx6OB_uchttps://www.youtube.com/v/x8A9Y1Dq_cQ

And then these three in Romance languages.
https://www.youtube.com/v/s_nmbVjOgYIhttps://www.youtube.com/v/kzomBDlWBrwhttps://www.youtube.com/v/G_u1dGk1vO0

So Orfeo, whaddya think? Is my fortified bunker permeable enough? 

[Karl Henning]

In English, these three are real gems.

https://www.youtube.com/v/C1k8B-qw040https://www.youtube.com/v/QWhdx6OB_uchttps://www.youtube.com/v/x8A9Y1Dq_cQ

Although I did not know that song, I was tickled by your using Dire Straits as an example.  In the following, in addition to coy (but, I think well gauged) allusions not only to Shakespeare, but to The Angels, and to "Somewhere" from West Side Story (itself an "updated" version of Romeo & Juliet, of course), Knopfler uses local rhythmic variants to create subtle interest in even the repeating elements.

https://www.youtube.com/v/mxfjSnMN88U

[Sergeant Rock]

https://www.youtube.com/v/mxfjSnMN88U

One of my personal Top 40 songs.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

". . . anyway, whatcha gonna do about it?"

[Sergeant Rock]

". . . anyway, whatcha gonna do about it?"

  ...and I love The Angels reference. So cool...

Sarge

[The new erato]

One of my personal Top 40 songs.

Sarge

Certainly my favorite Dire Straits song.

[Florestan]

A fine song no doubt. Dire Straits is one of my favorite bands.

I am more interested, though, in your reaction to the first three I've posted. Has anyone listened to them?