Why do you NOT like your favourite composer?

[Linus]

Someone once told me how mentally "hygienic" it is to sometimes consider and admit the less perfect aspects of the output of one's favourite composer (or any kind of artist). Basically, what's wrong with the guy/gal?

So, as per EigenUser's post "Why do you like your favorite composer", I'm curious as to the opposite.

As an example, I'll tackle Beethoven. Despite the fact that I adore his music to no end, I also (off the top of my head) find that

- his ego shines through too much in some of his more Romantic moments
- perhaps to compensates for not having the superior natural talent of Mozart, his music is full of intellectual ad hocs
- that heavy use of kettledrums is seldom justified

I'd love to here your "confessions"!

[EigenUser]

Someone once told me how mentally "hygienic" it is to sometimes consider and admit the less perfect aspects of the output of one's favourite composer (or any kind of artist). Basically, what's wrong with the guy/gal?

So, as per EigenUser's post "Why do you like your favorite composer", I'm curious as to the opposite.

As an example, I'll tackle Beethoven. Despite the fact that I adore his music to no end, I also (off the top of my head) find that

- his ego shines through too much in some of his more Romantic moments
- perhaps to compensates for not having the superior natural talent of Mozart, his music is full of intellectual ad hocs
- that heavy use of kettledrums is seldom justified

I'd love to here your "confessions"!

Another good thread! I started one way back asking the same question about pieces, but asking about composers is better because it is broader, I think.

I can't think of anything off of the top of my head for Bartok, Ligeti, or Ravel (my top three), but for my fourth, Messiaen, I do have a few.

1) Sometimes (often) his music gets a bit repetitive. This is only a problem when I don't like what is being repeated, though. For instance, the fifth movement (Joie du Sang des Etoiles) of the Turangalila-Symphonie (have you heard this work, Linus? great piece!) is very, very repetitive. However, I love that main theme. It reminds me of an overheating carousel ride.

2) In his later works, his use of birdsong can be too much for my tastes, but I try not to judge. I can't help but roll my eyes and think "Okay, Olivier, we get it! You really, really like birdsong!" I don't like when his music just starts to sound like all of the orchestra members playing their own birdsong (happens in one or two movements of Eclairs sur l'au-dela and also Reveil des Oiseaux). When he has everyone synchronized in a rhythmic "grid", though (like in the 3rd movement of Eclairs... or in Oiseaux Exotiques), I like it very much.

Fortunately, he has the compositional skill to not only overshadow these "issues" I have, but to be on my top five.

For Haydn, sometimes I think he is too proper (even having written the adagio of the 93rd symphony!). Consider the 8th symphony with the storm in the finale -- does that really sound like a storm to you?! I'm not asking for grinding 20C-style dissonance, but at least use a minor key! Take Vivaldi's Summer from T4S. Now that's a storm!

[some guy]

Mentally hygienic, eh?

Sounds fishy, to me.

And what I've seen so far--only two posts to be fair, but still--is that there are things about anyone that you like and that you don't like.

OK. That simple fact, on its own, doesn't seem to hold any promise for increasing one's enjoyment of any particular piece. I'm all for increasing one's enjoyment of any particular piece.

[Linus]

Another good thread! I started one way back asking the same question about pieces, but asking about composers is better because it is broader, I think.

Do you remember what it was called? I'd love to read it through.

1) Sometimes (often) his music gets a bit repetitive. This is only a problem when I don't like what is being repeated, though. For instance, the fifth movement (Joie du Sang des Etoiles) of the Turangalila-Symphonie (have you heard this work, Linus? great piece!) is very, very repetitive. However, I love that main theme. It reminds me of an overheating carousel ride.

Haven't heard it yet, but "an overheating carousel ride" sounds like good fun!

Fortunately, he has the compositional skill to not only overshadow these "issues" I have, but to be on my top five.

That's my attitude with many of my favourites as well: they have their "issues", as you say, but they easily drown in compositional genius.

For Haydn, sometimes I think he is too proper (even having written the adagio of the 93rd symphony!). Consider the 8th symphony with the storm in the finale -- does that really sound like a storm to you?! I'm not asking for grinding 20C-style dissonance, but at least use a minor key! Take Vivaldi's Summer from T4S. Now that's a storm!

Good point. He sometimes seems to have a humorous distance to almost everything. In that finale it's as though he's riding the storm with a smirk on his face and without a care in the world. Maybe he should have borrowed those Beethovian kettledrums. (Or he just needed more cowbell.)

[Linus]

Mentally hygienic, eh?

Sounds fishy, to me.

I think it means that we distance ourselves somewhat from our passions, re-evaluate them a bit and go for it again. I think that can be good.

And what I've seen so far--only two posts to be fair, but still--is that there are things about anyone that you like and that you don't like.

OK. That simple fact, on its own, doesn't seem to hold any promise for increasing one's enjoyment of any particular piece. I'm all for increasing one's enjoyment of any particular piece.

I actually think it can increase it (though not necessarily). The opposite attitude might imply that we trick ourselves into believing that we like a certain aspect of a composer's production (because of a halo effect, perhaps) when in fact we don't. To avoid this, it could be useful to point out the negative aspects and focus more on the positive ones.

I remember all too well how I pretended to enjoy some music in my youth which was just rubbish had I been honest with myself.

[some guy]

...we trick ourselves into believing that we like a certain aspect of a composer's production (because of a halo effect, perhaps) when in fact we don't.

Well, I can certainly say that this corresponds to nothing in my own experience, nor in the experience of anyone I've ever known.

I remember all too well how I pretended to enjoy some music in my youth which was just rubbish had I been honest with myself.

Hmmm. Well I would say this: if I do enjoy something, the concepts of rubbish and greatness seem equally impertinent. Even the rock music I listened to in eighth and nineth grades in order to fit in (hahahaha, nice try!!), remains music I still enjoy.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

With Wagner, well... you know... such little things as having narcissistic personality disorder, using his friends shamelessly with monstrous ingratitude and stealing his supporter's wife and emptying treasury of Bavaria. And being a very vicious antisemite, even for his time. It happens. On the other hand these espects of his personality make him much more interesting. His biographies feel like adventure novels.

[Linus]

With Wagner, well... you know... such little things as having narcissistic personality disorder, using his friends shamelessly with monstrous ingratitude and stealing his supporter's wife and emptying treasury of Bavaria. And being a very vicious antisemite, even for his time. It happens. On the other hand these espects of his personality make him much more interesting. His biographies feel like adventure novels.

I was just wondering what next to read. Perhaps a Wagner biography would be just the ticket!

[Karl Henning]

I like this one;  I've known some Wagnerites who hate the author, so we might take that fact as vindication 

[Jo498]

[Beethoven]

- perhaps to compensates for not having the superior natural talent of Mozart, his music is full of intellectual ad hocs

What do you mean with "ad hoc" in music? I find that Beethoven's music has a very good balance between "surprising" and "logical".

[some guy]

Anyone ever read Darwin, Marx, Wagner by Jacques Barzun?

I'm no big fan of Wagner. In fact, I think he's a terrible composer. But some of the things Barzun says about him in this book make even me uncomfortable.



Still, Barzun is a pretty good read, mostly. I hated Science: The Glorious Entertainment, though by all rights I should have enjoyed it thoroughly.

But I divulge.*

*That's a joke I made up a couple of days ago, and now I'm inflicting it on everyone. Because I am a bad person.

[Karl Henning]

As long as you revert to being a non-bad person when you come to Boston, all right.

[jochanaan]

As much as I love Gustav Mahler's music--and I do!--I get frustrated studying his scores when sometimes he seems to forget the actual ranges of instruments, especially woodwinds!

[Peter Power Pop]

I like this one;  I've known some Wagnerites who hate the author, so we might take that fact as vindication 

Here are a couple of links to that book:

Amazon.com
Bookfinder

[Ken B]

I'd rather complain about some of Nate's favorites.

[Mirror Image]

I'd rather complain about some of Nate's favorites.

Me too.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Bach, because he had 20 kids, and I hate kids 

[springrite]

Bach, because he had 20 kids, and I hate kids 

How about number of wives? (Well, not at the same time, of course...)

[Jo498]

Schubert can be too repetitive/redundant, even in pieces that I find sublime in other aspects, like the late piano sonatas or the C major symphony. I also find some movements too "schematic". And I do not like the "banging" in the "Wanderer fantasy" and the first movement of the D major sonata D 850.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

How about number of wives? (Well, not at the same time, of course...)

Last time I flew through SLC, I saw this (for the first time).