Je suis Charlie

[Marc]

Great! Then you should be able to produce at least one verse of it extolling non-violence and condemning violence without any qualifications of race and creed. You´ll make my day by so doing, honestly.

It's a different peace than the turn the other cheek-peace of Jesus, it's a more pragmatic point of view.

"If thy enemy inclines toward peace, then thou should seek peace also, and put thy trust in God" (Quran 8:61).

But even if Islam were categorical violent and barbaric and so on, does this give me/you the right to be violent and barbaric, too? If someone else is a killer, does that give me the right to be a killer, too? Should I copy other people's barbaric behaviour?

For ages and ages, many people claimed that Christ's message was nothing but peaceful, yet his followers have the blood of million innocent people on their hands, to gain and hold on to power and deter dissenters.

[....]
11. Multiculturalism and political correctness were from their beginnings, are right now, and forever will be, sad and tragic testimonies to human idiocy.

Yes, that's what many people want us to believe.

Well, thank the non-existing God that we have intelligent people around who start wars against other cultures to make us all happy. Peace and striving for peace is boring. Let's go for this wise intercultural Happy World War then, and, after millions of reasonless victims, let's be peaceful idiots and be political correct and multicultural again. Let's repeat history over and over to prove we will never learn.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I like the Russian approach. A few years ago, the Saudis asked for permission to build a mosque in Russia. Russian church representatives said: Fine - if you let us build an Orthodox Church in Saudi Arabia. Needless to say, the deal fell through.

[Cosi bel do]

I really find despicable how the Charlie Hebdo massacre is used by so many people, and also here, as a simple and practical tool to be digested and used at the service of their ideas against a race, a religion, against immigration, or to promote the silly (and also quite old fashioned) Huntingtonesque reasonings.
To these few persons : Charlie Hebdo is and has always been, and will always be, a pacifist journal. So, if you want to talk of war, you might think of doing it somewhere else than in a topic dedicated to homages to the victims at Charlie Hebdo (and, eventually, to other victims of this week's attack). Because in doing what you do, you are just insulting the memory of these wonderful people. And I believe that people who use someone's murder and its motives, and distort it for a completely opposite cause than those that guided this person and caused his death, must have a very cheap conception of honor, actually not really much more developed that the killer's.

[Ken B]

I really find despicable how the Charlie Hebdo massacre is used by so many people, and also here, as a simple and practical tool to be digested and used at the service of their ideas against a race, a religion, against immigration, or to promote the silly (and also quite old fashioned) Huntingtonesque reasonings.
To these few persons : Charlie Hebdo is and has always been, and will always be, a pacifist journal. So, if you want to talk of war, you might think of doing it somewhere else than in a topic dedicated to homages to the victims at Charlie Hebdo (and, eventually, to other victims of this week's attack). Because in doing what you do, you are just insulting the memory of these wonderful people. And I believe that people who use someone's murder and its motives, and distort it for a completely opposite cause than those that guided this person and caused his death, must have a very cheap conception of honor, actually not really much more developed that the killer's.

As we say in Bridge, double. Cite a racist comment from anyone on this thread. Cite one or stop calling names.

You claim to know, you alone it sounds, what caused their deaths. I say it was religious bigots yelling Allahu Akhbar and shooting them. What's your theory?

And "war" is a polite term for this http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/01/08/nigerias-911-boko-haram-kills-2000-in-attack-on-baga-city-burnt-to-the-ground/

[Rinaldo]

I like the Russian approach. A few years ago, the Saudis asked for permission to build a mosque in Russia. Russian church representatives said: Fine - if you let us build an Orthodox Church in Saudi Arabia. Needless to say, the deal fell through.

Which is exactly the wrong approach. One of the core principles of the western world is freedom of belief (as well as the separation of church and state - I find it quite scary that to build a religious building in Russia, you have to go through the church?!). Abandoning our values just to 'get back' at cultures that don't share them puts us on the way to, well, Saudi Arabia.

[Cosi bel do]

Willem, today : http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/charlie-hebdo-cartoonist-scoffs-vomits-supporters-article-1.2072906



Luz also made similar declarations. As he says, "Even Putin could agree on a peace dove".
http://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/medias/charlie-hebdo/des-dessinateurs-de-charlie-hebdo-denoncent-les-recuperations_793555.html

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

to build a religious building in Russia, you have to go through the church?!).

Don't know how you got that impression. If you want to build a mosque or synagogue, the church has no power over that.

Abandoning our values just to 'get back' at cultures that don't share them puts us on the way to, well, Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is the biggest funder of Islamic extremism all over the world. A Saudi-funded mosque on your territory is likely to be a locus of radicalism, and possibly terrorism.

[Ken B]

Calling bullshit

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/are-we-really-all-charlie-no-no-and-shamefully-no/story-fni0ffxg-1227180871950?nk=30a6e5706f6b42ffa51a3a65ac3bc075

[Florestan]

We should try to reach out to the frustrated islamic youth in the western world (like the suburbs of large cities like Paris), together with those imams, and show them that a holy war isn't the answer to their problems and offer them civilized alternatives.

Indeed, that´s the simplest, most effective solution. They shoot us with Kalashnikovs, blow us up with bombs and cut our throats on camera? No problem. All we have to do is: put spectacles on, clear throat and tell them "Gentlemen, this is not good; this is actually very mean. Please, please, please, behave yourselves, otherwise we will have to turn the other cheek!" --- and lo and behold!, they will be instantly turned into peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

Which is exactly the wrong approach. One of the core principles of the western world is freedom of belief

Oh yes, that is exactly what freedom of belief is meant for: building all across and all around Europe places of Islamic indoctrination and propaganda (as if there weren´too many already).

What you guys basically suggest is that, the deeper the ostrich buries its head in the sand when in danger, the more chances of surviving it has. 

[Ken B]

Which is exactly the wrong approach. One of the core principles of the western world is freedom of belief (as well as the separation of church and state - I find it quite scary that to build a religious building in Russia, you have to go through the church?!). Abandoning our values just to 'get back' at cultures that don't share them puts us on the way to, well, Saudi Arabia.

There are mosques in Moscow, private and public, and the church has no control. The city does, through zoning and building permits. The Suadi government sought permits to build and fund a mosque. To make a point the orthodox church made a counter offer to build a church in Ryadh. The Saudi government declined. The city authorities in Moscow have likewise declined the Saudis.

There is reason to believe the Moscow govt is opposing mosques to deter muslims living there. The mayor of Moscow advocated just exactly that. But there is nothing wrong ipso facto with denying the Saudi GOVERNMENT permission to build any sort of facility, especially when they show such bad faith, as Torso noted. 

I also find it funny you cite Russia as if it were a bastion of free speech, religion, and thought!

[The Six]

Calling bullshit

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/are-we-really-all-charlie-no-no-and-shamefully-no/story-fni0ffxg-1227180871950?nk=30a6e5706f6b42ffa51a3a65ac3bc075

The whole "Je suis Charlie" thing really does feel disingenuous. People today are very eager to be "activists" and jump on whatever social media bandwagon there is so they can feel like they're "making a difference." In most cases these people's support amounts to little more than using a hashtag on Twitter and pretending like they know anything about the issue at all. Then in a few weeks they'll forget about this and focus their outrage on the next social movement.

[Rinaldo]

Indeed, that´s the simplest, most effective solution. They shoot us with Kalashnikovs, blow us up with bombs and cut our throats on camera?

Yes and we call them terrorists and deal with them accordingly. Your rhetoric suggests that muslim = terrorist, which, in a world where there's over billion people of Islamic faith, is simply not the truth.

The point is to reach out to the young, disenfranchised muslims before they end up with a Kalashnikov in their hands.

[Florestan]

Your rhetoric suggests that muslim = terrorist

I said no such thing. What I did say is that islam was far from being "the religion of peace". The Quran is fullpacked with calls to violence and aggression against infidels. Muhammad himself was a violent man, he killed and ordered killings, he raped and ordered rapes. He put to death about anyone he could capture who mocked, insulted and criticized him. Muslims are told to emulate their prophet. Is it any wonder some of them do just that?

I say it loudly and clearly: if the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and decent people, it is not because of islam, but in spite of it. It is not because they follow Muhammad and his teachings, but precisely because they do not. But of course you don´t have to take my word for it. Read the Quran, read the history of Muhammad´s life and deeds and see for yourself.

 

[Rinaldo]

I said no such thing. What I did say is that islam was far from being "the religion of peace". The Quran is fullpacked with calls to violence and aggression against infidels.

It's been a time since I've read it but I don't recall anything that wouldn't be comparable to the darker stuff one can find in the Bible. It's a religion, full stop. And religion can be twisted in a lot of ways, as history has sadly shown.

[Ken B]

It's been a time since I've read it but I don't recall anything that wouldn't be comparable to the darker stuff one can find in the Bible. It's a religion, full stop. And religion can be twisted in a lot of ways, as history has sadly shown.

There is the -- breathtakingly arrogant -- mistake: "twisted". The aggressive interpretations of Islam are not the only ones possible, or held now, or held historically. But they are a fully legitimate reading, held by untold millions of muslims who know their books better than you do, now and for 1400 years; and they can cite chapter and verse.

That is part of why I say we are watching a civil war within Islam, between the bellicose and the more irenic. We are mostly bystanders. The worst thing we can do is give the hard liners easy victory.

[Ken B]

The whole "Je suis Charlie" thing really does feel disingenuous. People today are very eager to be "activists" and jump on whatever social media bandwagon there is so they can feel like they're "making a difference." In most cases these people's support amounts to little more than using a hashtag on Twitter and pretending like they know anything about the issue at all. Then in a few weeks they'll forget about this and focus their outrage on the next social movement.

Yes. I remember when bashing Charlie Hebdo was flavour of the month.
My friend who lived in Paris for 30 years thinks it might be different this time. I value his judgment, but I am still skeptical. More skeptical then about the non-French. We will see.

[André]

Meanwhile, in Nigeria...

Just as the Paris events unfolded, Boko Haram had a bomb detonated at the gate of a public market. The salient fact of this is that the bomb was wrapped around an unknowing 10-year old girl. Of course, she was among the many casualties (19?), her body instantly cut off in 2 and sent flying yards and yards away.

[Ken B]

A lying future http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/11/paris-attacks-we-must-overcome-fear-or-selfcensorship-will-spread

[Mandryka]

Meanwhile, in Nigeria...

Just as the Paris events unfolded, Boko Haram had a bomb detonated at the gate of a public market. The salient fact of this is that the bomb was wrapped around an unknowing 10-year old girl. Of course, she was among the many casualties (19?), her body instantly cut off in 2 and sent flying yards and yards away.

And terrible things are happening to the Palestinians in Gaza.

Apparently some french pupils objected to a minute's silence for those who died in France last week, saying that it was unfair, that a double standard is operating.

The French news was full of stuff yesterday focusing on the role of schools. I have no idea what the teachers in secondary education can say to the kids. That they should campagne against perceived injustice peaceably?  . . . I don't think that will be very convincing as an effective strategy for change.

By the way, the cartoons I've seen in Charlie Hebdo aren't so very offensive - they're offensive to extremists that's all. The famous one just shows Mahomet saying that it's tough to be loved by arseholes, with a headline saying that Mahomet is overwhelmed by fundamentalists. Nothing offensive about more moderate Islam as far as I know.
The one Discobolus has chosen is one I hadn't seen before, I think it's more offensive, even though I agree with the idea.

What I don't know is whether Charlie Hebdo published similar things about fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christians. If not, well . . . it's not fair.

[Florestan]

A lying future http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/11/paris-attacks-we-must-overcome-fear-or-selfcensorship-will-spread

Spot on.