Countdown to Extinction: The 2016 Presidential Election

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Were they your allies when they signed the Hitler-Stalin pact (ideologically misnomed as Ribentropp-Molotov) too?

I am curious why you say this. The actual name of this document is "Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" (Nichtangriffsvertrag zwischen Deutschland und der Union der Sozialistischen Sowjetrepubliken; Договор о ненападении между Германией и Советским Союзом). Calling it "Hitler-Stalin pact" is just as inaccurate as calling it "Molotov-Ribbentrop pact."

[Florestan]

I am curious why you say this. The actual name of this document is "Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" (Nichtangriffsvertrag zwischen Deutschland und der Union der Sozialistischen Sowjetrepubliken; Договор о ненападении между Германией и Советским Союзом). Calling it "Hitler-Stalin pact" is just as inaccurate as calling it "Molotov-Ribbentrop pact."

Oh, come on! You know very well that it was an agreement between Hitler and Stalin to partition Eastern Europe in corresponding spheres of influence. The official name is absolutely irrelevant and assigning any importance to it is like taking seriously the "democratic" in "German Democratic Republic" or the "people" in "People´s Republic of China".

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Oh, come on! You know very well that it was an agreement between Hitler and Stalin to partition Eastern Europe in corresponding spheres of influence.

Well yeah...so what? Hitler and Stalin were the leaders who initiated the process; Molotov and Ribbentrop were the foreign ministers who signed it. Amounts to the same thing.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

The official name is absolutely irrelevant and assigning any importance to it is like taking seriously the "democratic" in "German Democratic Republic" or the "people" in "People´s Republic of China".

Whether we like it or not, those are/were the names of those countries. "Red China," "Mainland China" or "Communist China" are just colloquialisms.

[Madiel]

Well it's nice to see people recognising wars are complicated.

[Wendell_E]

I do wonder how many of you, guys, actually have daily relationships and intercourse with "rednecks with an IQ less than 90", ie with people who

(1) do not hold a college degree
(2) cannot tell the difference between Bach and Bartok at the point of a gun
(3) have never heard about Voltaire, Marx or Marcuse, let alone read them
(4) struggle day in, day out to make ends meet

and

(5) adhere to, and agree with, traditional social values.

In other words, gentlemen, I do wonder how many of you have ever lived outside, and experienced, anything else than a "safe space", "closed bubble", "self serving" "liberal" environment.

No offense meant to anyone but based on the posts here my uneducated guess (pun intended) is: very few of you.

I've worked at a tire and automotive store for most of my life. I'd say all of my coworkers, and most of my family,  me excepted,  fit #s 1-4, really don't know about five, some "traditional" values are pretty appalling, in any case. Don't know (or care) about their IQs. 

[Tritone]

I didn't write this but I wish I did;  and there has to be a better response than "troll".  That's the bankrupt response:

The left is panicking because they realise Hillary's defeat means people are beginning to break free from the PC prison. This is a victory for those who refuse to feel shame for loving their country and its culture. For those who think that dignity is a person's birthright, not a gift from the benevolence of the elites. For those who refuse to be treated as a herd, incapable of moral autonomy.
But it's also a victory for all the ethnic minorities who refuse to be used as either cultural souvenirs or tools for the moral gratification of the left. And it's also a victory for women who reject the witness protection life that feminism offers them. A life of perpetual fear and resentment towards men.

There was never any consensus about the whole eco-feminist-multicultural-PC concoction; it was always an imposition from above that many people accepted because they found no outlet to challenge the official dogma. As society was made to conform and all political parties dutifully caved in to every demand of the new cleresy, it seemed dissent had been eliminated for good. But it was still there and eventually it has come out. Brexit was the watershed moment and now we have the American rejection of the PC project. A refusal to treat the land, the people, the laws and the economy as the plaything of the self-appointed elites.
The great Stefan Zweig entitled his biography of Erasmus "The right to heresy" and Americans, like Brexiters have exercised their right to heresy and recovered their ancient Saxon yearning for liberty. There is a comprehensive task of demolition ahead: The EU, relativism, multiculturalism, Obamacare and foreign aid.

Neither narcissistic celebrities, nor CNN, BBC nor the rest of Pravda media have been able to persuade people. Activists, intellectuals and other self-proclaimed moral leaders of society have equally failed in their attempts to shame dissenters into compliance. Their vision belongs in the morgue, right next to the cold corpse of Marxism.

[Madiel]

No, "troll" is the response to a person who turns up on a forum and posts absolutely nothing else than a series of inflammatory remarks on exactly the same subject, repeatedly.

Your posting history is available for all to see. It does not indicate you want anything else from this community other than to triumphantly declare the end of "political correctness" to your new-found audience. If I think you're a troll, it's because you've shown no sign at all that you want to talk about the main topic of this forum, which is classical music.

[Madiel]

Besides, as Clinton won the popular vote, any narrative that suggests a wholesale rejection of the Democrats is quite flawed.

I fully accept that the Electoral College is what matters and, unlike some people, I don't think a simple national first-past-the-post system is necessarily a good idea just because twice in recent years it would have changed the result. But don't kid yourself that Trump swept to a comprehensive victory.

[The new erato]

Their vision belongs in the morgue, right next to the cold corpse of Marxism.

Revolting against the established elite seem very Marxist to me. Otherwise what orfeo said. Now please demonstrate that you are here for the boards purpose, and not only to post inflammatory political posts.

[Florestan]

Revolting against the established elite seem very Marxist to me.

It´s been done countless times in recorded history. Nothing new and nothing Marxist about it, actually. 

[zamyrabyrd]

I didn't write this but I wish I did;  and there has to be a better response than "troll".  That's the bankrupt response:

The left is panicking because they realise Hillary's defeat means people are beginning to break free from the PC prison. This is a victory for those who refuse to feel shame for loving their country and its culture. For those who think that dignity is a person's birthright, not a gift from the benevolence of the elites. For those who refuse to be treated as a herd, incapable of moral autonomy.

But it's also a victory for all the ethnic minorities who refuse to be used as either cultural souvenirs or tools for the moral gratification of the left. And it's also a victory for women who reject the witness protection life that feminism offers them. A life of perpetual fear and resentment towards men.

There was never any consensus about the whole eco-feminist-multicultural-PC concoction; it was always an imposition from above that many people accepted because they found no outlet to challenge the official dogma. As society was made to conform and all political parties dutifully caved in to every demand of the new cleresy, it seemed dissent had been eliminated for good. But it was still there and eventually it has come out. Brexit was the watershed moment and now we have the American rejection of the PC project. A refusal to treat the land, the people, the laws and the economy as the plaything of the self-appointed elites.

The great Stefan Zweig entitled his biography of Erasmus "The right to heresy" and Americans, like Brexiters have exercised their right to heresy and recovered their ancient Saxon yearning for liberty. There is a comprehensive task of demolition ahead: The EU, relativism, multiculturalism, Obamacare and foreign aid.

Neither narcissistic celebrities, nor CNN, BBC nor the rest of Pravda media have been able to persuade people. Activists, intellectuals and other self-proclaimed moral leaders of society have equally failed in their attempts to shame dissenters into compliance. Their vision belongs in the morgue, right next to the cold corpse of Marxism.

The "right to heresy" is also the right to choose what values you want, not to have to accept an entire prepackaged set. For instance, one can be for equal pay for women but be against abortion as an unquestioned right or that religious orders should pay for contraception for its employees. One can accept non-discrimination of some sexual minorities but not to allow men in girls' bathrooms. It's as though if you accept one premise, you are obliged to take the whole alphabet soup without questioning. No thanks!

I am personally glad that the idea of voting in order to give someone with minority status a chance failed this time around. The subtext reinforced by actual numbers is that it was a dud in 2008 and 2012.

[zamyrabyrd]

Besides, as Clinton won the popular vote, any narrative that suggests a wholesale rejection of the Democrats is quite flawed. I fully accept that the Electoral College is what matters and, unlike some people, I don't think a simple national first-past-the-post system is necessarily a good idea just because twice in recent years it would have changed the result. But don't kid yourself that Trump swept to a comprehensive victory.

If one subtracts the felons who voted (80,000 in Virginia), the aliens who were encouraged by Obama practically the day before and multiple voters bused in an out of cities, then Hillary probably did not have a plurality.
59 million or so votes, coming virtually out of nowhere without the support of the party who nominated him or by the entrenched media, is nothing to sneeze at.

[Madiel]

If one subtracts the felons who voted (80,000 in Virginia), the aliens who were encouraged by Obama practically the day before and multiple voters bused in an out of cities, then Hillary probably did not have a plurality.
59 million or so votes, coming virtually out of nowhere without the support of the party who nominated him or by the entrenched media, is nothing to sneeze at.

1. I didn't say I was sneezing at them.

2. If one fiddles with the figures, one can prove anything. I do find it bizarrely amusing that people constantly question the integrity of democracy in the country that claims to lead the free world.

[zamyrabyrd]

1. I didn't say I was sneezing at them.
2. If one fiddles with the figures, one can prove anything. I do find it bizarrely amusing that people constantly question the integrity of democracy in the country that claims to lead the free world.

Integrity and democracy are two different animals. Those without the first can work any system to their advantage. When the President openly encourages non-citizens to vote, that is plain sedition.

[The new erato]

59 million or so votes, coming virtually out of nowhere without the support of the party who nominated him or by the entrenched media, is nothing to sneeze at.

If we sneeze, I suppose his hairpiece will blow off?

[Madiel]

Integrity and democracy are two different animals. Those without the first can work any system to their advantage. When the President openly encourages non-citizens to vote, that is plain sedition.

As opposed to when a Presidential candidate suggests that he won't accept the vote if he loses. That's just fine and dandy.

I know nothing about your claim that Obama encouraged non-citizens to vote. I certainly don't know whether the American system is sufficiently pathetic to enable non-citizens to vote, though if it does I'd say you have far bigger problems than what Obama might have said. Seriously, WTF is wrong with your electoral rolls?

But I also take anything you say with such a large quantity of salt, it affects my blood pressure. The real world is quite difficult enough to deal with, I simply don't have the time and energy to chase all your scatter-gun assertions that may or may not accord with the real world. Over and out.

[Florestan]

Liberal democracy is decomposing into its constitutive parts: Over the next decades, much of the world will face a tragic choice between illiberal democracy, or democracy without rights, and undemocratic liberalism, or rights without democracy.

But if that comes to pass, it is unlikely to be the end point. For when illiberal democrats fall out of favor, they tend not to give up power. What starts as a genuine attempt to channel the voice of the people all too often degenerates into a straightforward dictatorship. A strikingly similar development might well befall undemocratic liberalism: Forced to defend itself against an onslaught of illiberal populists, it may have to resort to increasingly illiberal means to subdue its opponents. In the long run, both illiberal democracy and undemocratic liberalism may thus be headed for a remarkably similar fate: a gradual descent into an unvarnished form of dictatorship.


Excellent, illuminative and rather pessimistic article by Yascha Mounk, a Lecturer on Political Theory at Harvard University's Government Department. Long but well worth a reading.

[Madiel]

Thanks Florestan. A good article indeed, albeit rather scary.

I wonder what, if anything, he thinks of Australian politics. We don't get a mention, not even with respect to our refugee policy...

[The new erato]

Thanks Florestan. A good article indeed, albeit rather scary.

Yes, there are so many scary precedents here. Respect for your opponents, a free press and transparency and no lying seem to be antidotes. Apply those to the US situation at your own liberty.