What conductors do

[chrisch]

Hello,

I am in need of some advice and hope some of the fine posters on here can give me some suggestions.

My background:  I have been listening to classical music for about two years now and have attended around 30 performances ranging from community orchestras to professional and thanks to youtube, I have an array of videos from Abbado to Zinman just a click away.   That being said, I have zero music training. 

Basically, everything I've read about what conductors do in concert makes sense, I grasp the simple things - conveying emotions with facial expressions and giving sections/soloists cues.   But no matter what the piece or who's conducting, I simply don't see how waving the baton sets the beat. 

Does anyone know of a book, website, video, journal article, strategies that I can study to help me grasp this concept?    I'm not looking for advanced theory, I just want to "see the beat." 

Or is this a concept that because I don't read music, will be almost impossible to see?   

[Norbeone]

Many conductor's prefer to signal each beat earlier than they are actually played, which can seem quite confusing unless you know exactly what his intentions are.

I don't know if you're familiar with the basic conducting shapes/patterns, but knowing at least this, is essential. After that, you can learn to be freer with the movements and be more selective with actually what you do. In other words, you may choose to signal only some of the beats or maybe none at all. It's really all about a conductor's personal style.

Do some air-conducting and you may find you can teach yourself a lot. 

[jochanaan]

Two things are essential to good conducting: the beat itself, and the preparation for the beat.  The beat gives the exact moment when the group starts playing, and is merely a hit to an imaginary surface with a rebound.  But what's more important to an orchestral musician is how a conductor sets up the beat.  A large prep indicates a loud entrance; a smaller one indicates a softer entrance; a gentle prep may indicate legato, while a brisk one--well, you get the idea.

Sometimes in video recordings it may look like the conductor is giving the beat ahead of time, but I have never played with a conductor who actually does this.  I suspect that the microphone placement has something to do with this; if the mics are at all far back, even twenty feet or so, there will be an audible delay between the conductor's beat and the orchestra's apparent entrance.

But then, an orchestra player once complained to Sir Thomas Beecham that he couldn't see the maestro's beat.  "Beat?" retorted Sir Thomas.  "What do you think I am, a bloody metronome?"

[Larry Rinkel]

Hello,

I am in need of some advice and hope some of the fine posters on here can give me some suggestions.

My background:  I have been listening to classical music for about two years now and have attended around 30 performances ranging from community orchestras to professional and thanks to youtube, I have an array of videos from Abbado to Zinman just a click away.   That being said, I have zero music training. 

Basically, everything I've read about what conductors do in concert makes sense, I grasp the simple things - conveying emotions with facial expressions and giving sections/soloists cues.   But no matter what the piece or who's conducting, I simply don't see how waving the baton sets the beat. 

Does anyone know of a book, website, video, journal article, strategies that I can study to help me grasp this concept?    I'm not looking for advanced theory, I just want to "see the beat." 

Or is this a concept that because I don't read music, will be almost impossible to see?   

See Leonard Bernstein's script on Conducting in The Joy of Music.
Then look for Brock McElheran's book on Conducting Technique.

[Greta]

Larry, or others, any other good conducting books you would recommend? I may consider taking this class sometime.

[The Mad Hatter]

Well, some conductors (Japanese in particular - can't think of any names off hand) don't conduct beats at all, but rather phrases.

[Larry Rinkel]

Well, some conductors (Japanese in particular - can't think of any names off hand) don't conduct beats at all, but rather phrases.

Asahina?

[uffeviking]

Ozawa?

[mahlertitan]

i don't know exactly what conductors do, but i suspect that they do much more in preparation than during performance.

[Marple]

Conducting is actually a pretty hard job! I've found out!

[jochanaan]

Then look for Brock McElheran's book on Conducting Technique.

Or look for it first.  It's the clearest and most concise guide to good conducting technique I've found--in fact, it's clear enough yet flexible enough I don't feel the need for any others.

[RebLem]

There is a good article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conducting which has some diagrams of some basic conducting beats, among other things.

Also, I have found that Andre Previn is a conductor with a good, textbook, non-eccentric, very clear beat.  Watching his videos would help.

[suzyq]

I may be sort of off-topic but, each time I have been to a concert to hear a pianist play, he/she is drowned out by the orchestra.

It seems to me that the orchestra  plays the role of "accompianist" in some  ways and that the conductor should be able to (forgive the right word) keep the orchestra down so that the performer can be heard.  Is this possible?

Each conductor seems to have their own style of hand or arm movements, and members of the orchestra must adjust to each style - this is a fascinating topic. 

[knight66]

Here is another thread on conductors.

Cheers,

Mike

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,327.msg5993/topicseen.html#msg5993

[jochanaan]

I may be sort of off-topic but, each time I have been to a concert to hear a pianist play, he/she is drowned out by the orchestra.

It seems to me that the orchestra  plays the role of "accompianist" in some  ways and that the conductor should be able to (forgive the right word) keep the orchestra down so that the performer can be heard.  Is this possible?

It is, and it should happen all the time.  A good accompanying conductor (not all of them are good at accompanying) will, first and foremost, ask the orchestra to adjust their dynamics so that the soloists will be heard.  As an orchestral oboist, I've been told often enough that, if I can't hear the soloist, I'm playing too loud.  The other thing a good accompanying conductor will insist on is that the orchestra follows his every move, as s/he follows the soloist.  Some mutual give-and-take is inevitable, of course; but it's traditional for the orchestra to follow the soloist, rather than the other way around.  To do that, first, we've got to hear the soloist (seeing him/her is also helpful), then the conductor has to be with the soloist.  Of course, then it's up to us to actually WATCH the conductor!

I have heard that many major orchestras will reduce their string sections for concertos.  This is a very good thing.  Despite a few things that have been written about how large string sections can actually play more quietly than small ones, it's still easier to get good balance with thirty strings than sixty.

Which orchestra do you regularly hear, suzyq?  Remind me not to waste my money on it; it sounds like it doesn't know how to accompany.

[suzyq]

Jochanaan, you should teach. 

I've learned a great deal from reading your responses. 

What brought "holding the orchestra" to mind was a recent flyer advertising Martha Argerich, who will be giving a concert with Dutoit conducting.  It was a while ago, I had gone to hear her play with the same conductor at Carnegie Hall and I was way in the balcony - the only time I could really hear her was when the orchestra stopped playing for a short time.  I would really like to hear her play (if she actually appears), but hesitate buying a ticket based on my last experience.

I've gone to other concerts at various times, and with other artists, and the same thing happens.  Maybe it's just the luck of the draw.  Maybe opera and ballet are a different thing.  It dosen't happen at the opera or the ballet. 

Thanks again.

[jochanaan]

Jochanaan, you should teach. 

I do, privately. 

What brought "holding the orchestra" to mind was a recent flyer advertising Martha Argerich, who will be giving a concert with Dutoit conducting.  It was a while ago, I had gone to hear her play with the same conductor at Carnegie Hall and I was way in the balcony - the only time I could really hear her was when the orchestra stopped playing for a short time.  I would really like to hear her play (if she actually appears), but hesitate buying a ticket based on my last experience.

She's wonderful.  I've never heard her live, but I've heard her on recordings, mostly over the radio.  I also have her playing the Shostakovich and Tchaikovsky trios with Gidon Kremer and Misha Maisky, in a live recording made in Japan.  Magnificent!  However, with her tendinitis, it may be that she doesn't have the power she once had to project over an orchestra, although her passion and expressiveness are in no way diminished.

I've gone to other concerts at various times, and with other artists, and the same thing happens.  Maybe it's just the luck of the draw.  Maybe opera and ballet are a different thing.  It dosen't happen at the opera or the ballet. 

That's probably because the orchestra is in the pit, while with concertos, the poor soloist has to share the stage with the full group.

On the other hand, I once heard a television broadcast of Kyung-Wha Chung, Andre Previn and the Pittsburgh Symphony playing William Walton's Violin Concerto.  I don't know if it was the microphone placement or a reflection of what actually happened, but Miss Chung's tone was so powerful that in many places SHE swamped the orchestra! (This was in the 1970s; Miss Chung was still considered something of a prodigy.)

[suzyq]

That's probably because the orchestra is in the pit, while with concertos, the poor soloist has to share the stage with the full group.

It would be a "good thing" - wish concert halls were set up so that the soloist is onstage, and the orchestra is in the pit.   Never happen, I guess.

[jochanaan]

It would be a "good thing" - wish concert halls were set up so that the soloist is onstage, and the orchestra is in the pit.   Never happen, I guess.

No way.  Too much to move at intermission.

[RJR]

Hello,

I am in need of some advice and hope some of the fine posters on here can give me some suggestions.

My background:  I have been listening to classical music for about two years now and have attended around 30 performances ranging from community orchestras to professional and thanks to youtube, I have an array of videos from Abbado to Zinman just a click away.   That being said, I have zero music training. 

Basically, everything I've read about what conductors do in concert makes sense, I grasp the simple things - conveying emotions with facial expressions and giving sections/soloists cues.   But no matter what the piece or who's conducting, I simply don't see how waving the baton sets the beat. 

Does anyone know of a book, website, video, journal article, strategies that I can study to help me grasp this concept?    I'm not looking for advanced theory, I just want to "see the beat." 

Or is this a concept that because I don't read music, will be almost impossible to see?

If you're still interested in conducting techniques, look for a book by Hermann Scherchen. A to Z.