David Hurwitz

[SimonNZ]

If a newbie feels listening to Beethoven's fifth symphony is homework then maybe it is time to quit and return to listening Taylor Swift or whatever it is that excites them.

If someone who has never shown an interest in classical before tells you they were floored by hearing, say, Allegeri's Miserere you do not tell them their next stop should be Beethoven's Fifth.

And if some other person told you that they found getting through all four movements of B5 to be a tedious slog you do not tell them that they may as well stop trying with classical.

That "return to Taylor Swift" comment is the kind of unhelpful snark I'd expect from Hurwitz. If you told me it was an actual quote from that video I wouldn't be surprised.

[Karl Henning]

Well, and what GMG demonstrates daily, the Literature is rich, and there's more ways into the woods than one. No two of us have trod the same musical path, and if some of us dig Taylor Swift, why the hell not?

[71 dB]

If someone who has never shown an interest in classical before tells you they were floored by hearing, say, Allegeri's Miserere you do not tell them their next stop should be Beethoven's Fifth.

And if some other person told you that they found getting through all four movements of B5 to be a tedious slog you do not tell them that they may as well stop trying with classical.

That "return to Taylor Swift" comment is the kind of unhelpful snark I'd expect from Hurwitz. If you told me it was an actual quote from that video I wouldn't be surprised.

I give up...

[Karl Henning]

I give up...

Don't give up, buddy. It's just natural give-&-take on a forum.

[Baxcalibur]

I think the list is fine. My nitpick is getting this far without mentioning Dvořák's 9th, though if it were really up to me, the Slavonic Dances would be there too. A good chunk of new listeners would probably be interested in that one Chopin nocturne in the background of every other meme video. And so on.

Here we go again with the attacks on Hurwitz that, to me, seem completely groundless and frankly ridiculous.

Hurwitz's lists were never meant for people who already know serious music. They are aimed at those who are still at the very beginning, who don't yet know what to listen to and genuinely need a guide to point out what's worth paying attention to. The internet is absolutely flooded with exactly this kind of beginner-oriented recommendation: "100 classical pieces you must hear before you die," "50 jazz albums for newcomers," "the 30 best prog-rock records to start with," "top 10 entry-level operas," "where to begin with contemporary classical," and so on. You can find the same thing in every other domain.

In literature you have "50 books everyone should read", etc. In cinema there are Letterboxd's "Film School 101," "1001 Movies You Must See...," or "If you liked The Matrix, watch these 10 cyberpunk films." In healthy eating people share "What to buy if you're just starting to cook real food" and "7-day meal plans for absolute beginners." Fitness offers "Couch to 5K," the "Starting Strength novice program," or "The 10 best bodyweight exercises for people who've never trained." Wine enthusiasts post "Wines under $20 that don't suck" and region-by-region starter packs. Even niche hobbies such as fountain pens or mechanical keyboards come with "beginner buying guides" and "don't make these first-timer mistakes" lists.

People, by nature, are lazy about research, and often lack confidence when entering an unfamiliar field. The illusion of total freedom ("listen to whatever you want, in any order!") usually ends up with paralysis or sticking to the same three familiar pieces forever. External guidance is not just useful; it is practically essential, and not only for absolute beginners. Even experienced listeners constantly lean on recommendations: "Which recordings of late Beethoven quartets should I try?" "Any recent recordings of Messiaen that blow the old ones away?" "Give me something in the vein of Ligeti's but written in the last ten years." That is exactly what we do on forums, this included.

I would never sit down and just listen to Hurwitz. His own lists aren't on my playlist either. But I still actively use recommendations (including ones I read right here on this forum), despite having listened to serious music for half a century. Because no matter how long you've been in the game, there is always more out there than one lifetime can cover, and a thoughtful pointer from someone else is still gold.

I don't like Hurwitz, but I completely agree with this post. People are indeed lazy about research, and it's getting worse with AI chatbots around. So it's good that someone as influential as Hurwitz is making real content aimed at beginners, and maybe we'll see others improve on that.

Even reviewers you don't like can be a useful source of recommendations when they're consistent. I've seen people brag about how if a critic hates a recording, then they'll like it. A "CD From Hell" - a great way to draw attention to something - becomes a must-listen.

[AnotherSpin]

CD from Hell is actually quite an interesting concept. And indeed, when it comes to developing your own independent (?) taste, it's genuinely helpful to get not only positive recommendations but negative ones as well. Disagreement is every bit as valuable as agreement, if not more so at times.

I'll say it again: I don't listen to Hurwitz myself. Still, if I extrapolate back, had someone fifty years ago constantly and passionately told me about fascinating recordings, and if those recordings had been as instantly available as they are now through streaming, I probably would have found it captivating.

Then again, who knows? Might I have ended up overly shaped by that external influence? Though, come to think of it, everything we consider our own taste is formed under someone else's influence anyway.

[71 dB]

Don't give up, buddy. It's just natural give-&-take on a forum.

I don't have endless need to defend Hurwitz. I have said what I think about these videos he has posted recently. If some others here think he is doing a bad job at it then so be it. Each to their own.

[Karl Henning]

I don't have endless need to defend Hurwitz.

We should worry about anyone who did.

[71 dB]

We should worry about anyone who did.

Hah! 

[Jo498]

The purpose of his list isn't to gain the maximal variety using minimal amount of works. He started with 3 symphonies, then 3 concertos, then smaller scale orchestral works etc. He is systematic in this sense.

Maybe, but I don't think that this is the best way to give an introduction and overview (even though that 40 year old series did it somewhat similarly, I also find Brahms' 1st a very heavy, long and difficult piece for a beginner) It makes pieces 2 and 3 a bit redundant, they are far too similar to the 1st. Even 45 min symphonies are IMO at the upper end of what works as good intro and he could have offered e.g. Haydn's 100 or 104, Beethoven's 5th and e.g. Sibelius 4th or 5th as a much broader stylistic spectrum of symphonies.

Far more ground could be covered (before getting to the first somewhat different piece, Debussy) because one simply doesn't know what the newbie will like. Even the Mozart concerto is the most "romantic" of his concertos (and it should have been come before the Grieg, otherwise it probably will be a bit of a anticlimax with the much leaner sound and piano texture, even the newbie will wonder why the pianist plays only half as many notes as in the Grieg). The first 8 pieces are all broadly "romantic" and all in a minor key.