Britain and Europe.

[knight66]

Yes, the SNP would push for a further vote. However, it is quite possible that on its own Scotland would be vetoed by the likes of Spain, concerned at a possible bid for freedom by areas of their own country and who knows, even Italy could start to split at the seams. The Scots are clearly ignorant of the vile treatment the Greeks received, which should be a warning to any small country, whether or not it is in the Euro.

A Japanese entrepeneur working in the UK has been quoted as saying that the entire referendum is the Tory party masturbating. I agree. This is about Tory party splits. The populace was not clamouring about it. External circumstances with mass migration has played into the hands of the Brexit camp and the fear buttons have been successfully pressed. So today the latest poll gives Brexit a three point lead.

The arguments are complex. The decision is one that ought to be taken by the people paid to take them. Instead, both sides distort what facts there are and noises off have been counterproductive. It is sheer pretence that Brexit leaders are on the side of the workers and intend to be more democratic than at present. It is stuffed with people who have declared the Health Service should go private and people who want to weaken workers' rights.

I do agree that if we stay, there will be little let up in bargaining for special treatment. Equally I suspect that once the brief honeymoon has expired, the main partners in Europe would likely ignore the UK's special pleading.

Of course, if the vote is very close and the election corruption charges stick, we may have another election and a rerun of the leave campaign.

Mike

[vandermolen]

We should simply have been content with EFTA.

[Ken B]

We should simply have been content with EFTA.

Precisely.

[marvinbrown]

  As a citizen of the UK what troubles me most with BREXIT is that we are pretty much evenly divided on this issue.  The polls are fluctuating within the 50%-50% and its changing every week, sometimes for other times against but always within a tight 5%-7% percentage points. It is clear we are hesitant, we don't know what we want and that's dangerous for our economic future.

  We are divided because we do not know what the overall long term effect of leaving now will be. We also don't know what the overall long term effect of staying will be if the EU continues to expand and its problems grow..... and yet here we are going to the polls soon....clueless!

  marvin

[Ken B]

A big lead for Brexit?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

I'm not well informed on the details but I think you should go. The EU is wildly undemocratic and probably irredeemably so. Monetary union is a disaster. Control of your own borders is worth having.

No one seriously argues Canada should seek a closer political union with the US, but do argue something like that for Britain. Odd.

Keep free trade, ditch the rest.

[Rinaldo]

The EU is wildly undemocratic...

How so?

[Spineur]

The telephone polls are notoriously unreliable.   A german journalist claims that the bookmakers do a much better job....
Anyway, the real thing is only 10 days away.

[Florestan]

The EU is wildly undemocratic

Well, had it been wildly undemocratic it would have prevented the Brexit referendum, ain´t it?

I am no big fan of the current state of the EU but I have no reason whatsoever to rejoice over its weakening or eventual break up. Undemocratic or no, its existence is a supplementary safeguard (besides NATO) against Romania´s falling again under Russian influence and hegemony. Honestly, I´d rather live in an undemocratic but Russian-proof EU than in a democratic but solitary Romania which would end up very quickly being turned into Greater Moldavia.

As always in politics, I choose the lesser evil, because no opportunity ever presents itself to choose the greater good. 

[Jo498]

The EU certainly is a bureaucratic moloch but neither very different nor obviously worse than the combinations of plutocracy and bureaucracy that reign most nation states. And while it's crumbling as never before it can hardly be denied that it was a stabilizing factor in the last decades.

[Florestan]

Actually, "democracy", "democratic" and "democratically" belong to the family of those umbrella-words which can mean anything or nothing, depending on who uses them.

[Ken B]

Well, had it been wildly undemocratic it would have prevented the Brexit referendum, ain´t it?

I am no big fan of the current state of the EU but I have no reason whatsoever to rejoice over its weakening or eventual break up. Undemocratic or no, its existence is a supplementary safeguard (besides NATO) against Romania´s falling again under Russian influence and hegemony. Honestly, I´d rather live in an undemocratic but Russian-proof EU than in a democratic but solitary Romania which would end up very quickly being turned into Greater Moldavia.

As always in politics, I choose the lesser evil, because no opportunity ever presents itself to choose the greater good. 

By that test I am right. The EU has rejected the results of plebiscites more than once.

[mc ukrneal]

By that test I am right. The EU has rejected the results of plebiscites more than once.

Are you talking about votes that are non-binding, like the recent Netherlands vote?

[Florestan]

The EU has rejected the results of plebiscites more than once.

My dear friend, you know very well that we are mostly on the same page when it comes to politics, but on this particular issue you are wrong, trust me. Yes, it is very true that the EU is not quite fond of referendums (or is it referenda?), but there was no referendum rejected or ignored --- all of them resulted in treaties being ammended and/or renegociated.

If you equate democracy with referendums then the most democratic country in the world is Switzerland.

[jlaurson]

The telephone polls are notoriously unreliable.   A german journalist claims that the bookmakers do a much better job....
Anyway, the real thing is only 10 days away.

Always go with the bookies! Their track record is far superior to any polling. There has been research with "pools" on elections in the US that has also shown it.

My dear friend, you know very well that we are mostly on the same page when it comes to politics, but on this particular issue you are wrong, trust me. Yes, it is very true that the EU is not quite fond of referendums (or is it referenda?), but there was no referendum rejected or ignored --- all of them resulted in treaties being ammended and/or renegociated.

If you equate democracy with referendums then the most democratic country in the world is Switzerland.

Well, that *is* a little disingenuous. The EU would then usually table the issue, propose something identical-but-in-name, make sure that one doesn't get held up by a referendum, and move on. We've seen it plenty of times in the last 35 years. I'm agnostic on the issue; in a way I kind of would like to find out what would happen if Britain exited... and having worked in Brussels in politics (albeit for an extremely brief time), I can say that the incompetence and waste there is far beyond even the most pessimistic person's imagination. A bunch of mediocrities that feel like if they don't legislate other people's lives they're not doing their job. The day-to-day is as atrocious as it gets... but I'll readily admit the greater idea of Europe and much of what it has brought is terrific. Perhaps we have milked it for what it was worth and it is time to cut it down to size? Not sure a Brexit will do that but also know that staying in won't change much. If I were Britain, I'd look hard at Norway -- because they are screwed in many ways: Have to adapt to all the ridiculous rules without any say.

Yes, the SNP would push for a further vote. However, it is quite possible that on its own Scotland would be vetoed by the likes of Spain, concerned at a possible bid for freedom by areas of their own country and who knows, even Italy could start to split at the seams. The Scots are clearly ignorant of the vile treatment the Greeks received, which should be a warning to any small country, whether or not it is in the Euro.
...
The arguments are complex. The decision is one that ought to be taken by the people paid to take them. Instead, both sides distort what facts there are and noises off have been counterproductive. It is sheer pretence that Brexit leaders are on the side of the workers and intend to be more democratic than at present. It is stuffed with people who have declared the Health Service should go private and people who want to weaken workers' rights.
I do agree that if we stay, there will be little let up in bargaining for special treatment. Equally I suspect that once the brief honeymoon has expired, the main partners in Europe would likely ignore the UK's special pleading.
Of course, if the vote is very close and the election corruption charges stick, we may have another election and a rerun of the leave campaign.
Mike

Totally agree with the latter part. Only the supposed "vile treatment" of the Greeks does not find me nodding. Really? Shoving money into their decrepit, sclerotic cleptocracy and asking that they stop doing what has harmed them in the first place was "vile treatment"? I mean, the Greeks were screwed, but they were not forced to join the EURO back then. (Though, admittedly, bribed.) They were not forced to cook their books to be able to join in the first place. (Though they were encouraged by the rest of Europe helpfully closing both eyes.) The Greeks have what they have thanks to more or less two families ruling the country in complicit competition in which they established an unsustainable state... a GDR of modern Europe... and the largest shadow economy in Europe. (Probably the only thing keeping the country afloat is the healthy shadow economy by now... and if I had had a government like that, I'd have commended everyone not paying a dime to the state, too.) But that's wildly off topic.

[Florestan]

Well, that *is* a little disingenuous. The EU would then usually table the issue, propose something identical-but-in-name, make sure that one doesn't get held up by a referendum, and move on. We've seen it plenty of times in the last 35 years.

As I said, I am not quite pleased with how the EU is currently working. But I´d rather have it go on like that than no EU at all.

the incompetence and waste there is far beyond even the most pessimistic person's imagination. A bunch of mediocrities that feel like if they don't legislate other people's lives they're not doing their job.

I am sure this is actually the case, but do you really believe that the ordinary EU citizen really abide by their legislation? I can assure you that the Romanians in the street, myself included, could not care less about the "communitarian acquis"... 

[Scion7]

What my countrymen need to do is drop the EU, and re-establish the British Empire.
We can start with Romania - it's just sitting there, ripe for the picking!

[snyprrr]

Jokes aside, though, let us not forget that there is another country which is indeed genuinely, greatly and actively interested in a disunited Europe and a disarrayed EU... 

Yissrael?

[Florestan]

What my countrymen need to do is drop the EU, and re-establish the British Empire.
We can start with Romania - it's just sitting there, ripe for the picking!

The Ottoman Empire tried hard to pick us, and they ultimately disappeared from history.

The Holy Roman Empire, in Austrian or Austro-Hungarian disguise, tried hard to pick us, and they ultimately disappeared from history.

The Tsarist Russia tried hard to pick us, and they ultimately disappeared from history.

The USSR Empire tried hard to pick us, and they ultimately disappeared from history.


Are you really willing to take your chance?

 

[Florestan]

Yissrael?

I don´t know. I don´t think so.

I meant Russia first and foremost.

[Todd]

I just read that Brexit leads in one poll by ten points.  I understand it is one poll, but that is just insane.  Electing Trump president in the US would be more reasonable than the UK leaving the EU.