Britain and Europe.

[Christo]

1 I'm not intimately familiar with Dutch history. But they still have a titular/figurehead king or queen. America has not had a monarch of any kind (though some would argue that recent presidents have tried to abrogate to themselves the powers of kingship).

2 And here already we're getting away from North-Central Europe to the Middle East. No doubt precedents for anything can be found from cultures all over the world if we look hard enough. But I was speaking of pioneer expansion westward all of this vast country, and not creation of an empire. In general, the US did not follow the British or French or Spanish model of conquering far-off countries in South America, Asia, or Africa.

3 France has had its history of problems with Algerians and Muslims, to be sure. But from its inception, the role of black slaves in this country was an essential conflict that has defined us to this day. I don't see where you can say that of France.

4 At last, a concession! How often does one see that at GMG? This is such a propitious moment that I'm going to print out this post, frame it, and hang it on my wall as proof that agreement is actually possible on this forum. But it's not just Jewish immigration that has defined this country in a way I believe to be unique. It's also the Irish, Italians, Chinese, and more recently Latinos who have immigrated here in the belief that America is a melting pot and promised land offering freedom and opportunity for all. That of course has often been a cruel delusion; however, I think it a cultural distinction unique to this country.

The other figures mentioned were, to one degree or other, tongue in cheek.

Re 1: You should, as the Dutch Republic (c. 1579-1795) presents the main 'example' for the American Declaration of Independence (that is partly based on the Dutch 1579 Declaration) A 'Dutch Republican' Long Islander should know. :-) (The present 'kingdom' is a post-Napoleontic arrangement as are most European 'monarchies'. )
Re 2: If you prefer to confine American 'course of empire' ideas to pioneer expansion, then Russia is the obvious parallel. But I would say that it contains specific traits from the 'Third Rome' tradtion shared with other Christian nations and in the American situation directly derived from British protestant theology; again, the strongest parallel is its Russian counterpart.
Re 3: I was referring at French African slavery and its consequences for the African-French community.
Re 4: Okay, the melting pot is real. But didn't define American culture in an equal measure as did its European foundations, I'd say.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Re 1: You should, as the Dutch Republic (c. 1579-1795) presents the main 'example' for the American Declaration of Independence (that is partly based on the Dutch 1579 Declaration) A 'Dutch Republican' Long Islander should know. :-) (The present 'kingdom' is a post-Napoleontic arrangement as are most European 'monarchies'. )
Re 2: If you prefer to confine American 'course of empire' ideas to pioneer expansion, then Russia is the obvious parallel. But I would say that it contains specific traits from the 'Third Rome' tradtion shared with other Christian nations and in the American situation directly derived from British protestant theology; again, the strongest parallel is its Russian counterpart.
Re 3: I was referring at French African slavery and its consequences for the African-French community.
Re 4: Okay, the melting pot is real. But didn't define American culture in an equal measure as did its European foundations, I'd say.

How well Jefferson knew the Dutch document is an open question. The claim is made here -
http://news.wisc.edu/was-declaration-of-independence-inspired-by-dutch/
- but I don't know if this scholar's argument is widely accepted by historians. It was not something taught when I learned American history. I have a good friend who is a Political Science professor with a Dutch wife, and will ask him.

As for slavery, the unique element in early US history is that black slaves were owned on the mainland from the country's birth, and that's not true of France. Certainly one of the primary strands in American history is the tension between the ideal of freedom/equality for all and the irreconcilable continuance of racism and xenophobia. It is well-known that Jefferson originally included a passage attacking slavery in the Declaration, but it was rejected by the Continental Congress in 1776: "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither." And as for the melting pot, it seems to me an essential element of American society and very strongly related to the theme of xenophobia, however much you downplay it. Over and out.

[Que]

"Over and out"

On that appropriate note proceedings here, that strayed away from the original topic, are concluded.

Though I promised myself not to post on this thread again, I gladly make an exception for its conclusion.

Q