Dating or not dating.

[NikF]

Alien, if she says 'yes,' I will play Janáček's String Quartet No. 2, "Intimate Letters" in your honor, but if she says 'no,' I will play Schnittke's String Quartet No. 2. This way I can enjoy the outcome whether it's a positive or negative one.

So generous of you. 

[Mirror Image]

Lol 

Either way, I don't mind 

So generous of you. 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

For the choir I'm doing bass but I could easily sing the tenor part.
I'm naturally a high baritone anyway, though not a classical vocal style 

Ah....sometimes it's nice to be a tenor if you want to stand next to some altos!

[NikF]

I am really surprised how easy I took it, well I guess I haven't been dreaming of her for more than two weeks so it's an easy thing to spring from?

Or will I wake up nihilistic as fuck tomorrow morning? 

Good stuff.
I've been rejected hundreds of times. But it hasn't stopped me getting with some incredible women. So continue keeping it in perspective.

[NikF]

I've been thinking of a situation:

"Hey {female}, can I be awkward for a minute and make a fool of myself?"

*Girl gives confused reaction

"I find you quite attractive and by asking the following will sooth my chronic headache. I don't know you and you don't know me so can I ask you to get a coffee with me on...."

"yes/no/WTF you creep/you're an ugly moron/I think ur hot too etc"

"Cool, now I'm going to give to charity"

I believe there are better situations to think about than all that. But you seem to have a lot of time on your hands.

Anyway, everything you wrote in that post made me smile because it reminds me of my best friend (aka my studio assistant/arch nemesis etc.) when I first met him. The dude was 20 and an actor and model and on a regular basis would launch into rants about girls and dating and the difficulties involved. The outbursts were invariably colourful, clever, detailed, witty, and often of great length. But he would always finish by getting all serious and saying that he couldn't get a date or couldn't get get a girl to take him seriously.

[NikF]

I dedicate this and the following post to everyone in the thread who is trying to get a date. And I do so with sincerity and my best wishes.


So, I mentioned my friend Iain. He and I eventually had a chat about stuff and to this day I remember his exact words at the conclusion: "So, you're telling me to man-up". Yes, I am, you immature little sh-t. 
And I'm glad he finally did, because he had two choices -
#1 Act like a man. Or more exactly, an adult. Then reap the benefits.
#2 Act like a child and find an echo chamber online who will agree that girls are all 'shallow bitches' and won't give him a chance because - and I'm not joking when I say this was one of his excuses - "...my wrists are too thin!"

I've already spoken of how when I was 16 my boss used to hand me a camera and send me out after lunch or when the workflow was quiet and tell me to take photos of strangers. He didn't mean like street photography. I was to walk up to people and ask to take their photo. Amongst other things it made me man-up.
At first I was -
"er...excuse me but I'm learning and uh my boss says I'm to learn to talk to people and get them to relax and take their photo and so um if you're not too busy can I take your photo please?  "
By the time I was 17 I was -
"Hi. I'm Nik and you look great and I'd like to take your photo right now.  How do you feel about that?  "
I learned there was no difference between someone saying "Yes, that's cool!" or saying "No, f-ck off!" So, someone doesn't like me. Okay - who gives a sh-t? 
When I figured that out I went from strength to strength. And it helped with talking to girls.

Okay, see this building?



- it's incredibly similar to the studio where I not only worked, but also lived in. And those stairs? When I was 17 or 18 years old I used to sit there on summer nights at about 18:00 (or at the end of my working day) and would look for girls and women.  At that time of the evening they would have finished work too and be making their way home. And I would sit there and one would pass and I'd -

"Hey girl, can I talk to you?"
*no interest. fair enough. here's another one coming*
"Excuse me, would you come and sit with me, please?"
*huh. she didn't even acknowledge me. oh well. ah, this one looks hot*
"Can I walk you to your bus stop? I promise I won't say a thing the whole time!"

I used to keep that up, constantly, like a guy selling newspapers on the corner. Night after night. I remember one time I was sitting there and had my usual paper cup of milk in hand and a great looking girl came right over and...dropped a few coins in my cup and then turned around and smugly walked away. 
But mostly they would ignore me.  Once in a while I'd receive a dirty look, but usually they just acted like I didn't exist or I was a bad smell or something. Mostly. Usually. But not every single time, because occasionally I would feel a tug on the line and if I did't get excited and blow it I'd land one. I don't know how often, because I never thought to count. One in 100? One in 200? Regardless, it's a numbers game.  And if all you do is be too scared or wait for special treatment or simply sit whining with other whiners then you're not even in the game. Or maybe you're still in the game but it's one in 1000000 she'll unexpectedly come to your door.

[NikF]

I am not a handsome man.

Another couple of things I've mentioned before is that I'm not tall and that by the age of 18 I'd already twice been stabbed in the face. Google "Tommy Flanagan actor scars" - that's what some dude tried to do to me. It's quite a common attack tactic where I'm from. Anyway, he partly managed to slice one side and to this day if I let the left side of my face relax it droops down a little. Add into that the results of boxing and I'm not a pretty picture. But that's not an excuse for whining and complaining. I just get on with it.
My friend Iain walks into a room and women look at him - all types and ages of women. But it's not just that they look, it's also how they react (mostly) unconsciously - they arch their back, groom/play with their hair, speak a little louder to get him to notice them in return. He doesn't need to try. The fact he exists is enough for them. Good for him.

Here's another couple of things about Iain. No matter where he lives there are never 'no single women around here' and it's never a case that 'all the good women are already taken and have boyfriends'. He can always find a girl. I can too, but it's much more difficult for me. I've known that difference for a long time. Back in the day when I was 18 or 19 I could never get as many girls as the tall, dark and handsome male models I photographed could always get. It's a fact that dating is easier for some and more difficult for others. It's the same in all of life. Life is unfair, definitely. But I make the most of it anyway.

Successful dating is about being a man, about recognising it's a numbers game, and also making the most of yourself - although the latter should be a goal in any case. So man-up and stop behaving like a child or a victim of circumstances. You're not special or more deserving, you're not multi-faceted or more complicated than anyone else. You don't get allowances made or handed short cuts to success.
Go out and talk to people, not just those you want to date and/or f--k. When you get more comfortable talking to strangers and better at reading people you'll start to recognise the signs when a girl is interested and if it's worth your while to ask her out.


Finally, if you do everything right, if you're friendly and relaxed and cool, if you're kind and supportive and honest, if you're an unselfish and considerate lover, if you always make sure you do the right thing in every situation, and even if you're tall, dark and handsome, never forget that you're still entitled to f--k all. Because that's the way it is and the way it always has been and always will be. So you might as well go out and smell the flowers.


tl;dr read this post by the Sarge. http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26059.msg1050538.html#msg1050538 








       

[Mirror Image]

Well....I asked her, we had a little laugh but as Greg predicted, to good to be true; she's taken 

Sorry to hear about this, Alien. Keep your head up. There's plenty to other women out there.

[NikF]

In other news:

I still haven't contacted the pharmacist to see if she wants to discuss old times. I just keep forgetting about it.

For the last few weeks I've been dating someone. She's the aspiring aerial silks artiste I've mentioned elsewhere. She's younger than me, she has blue hair (and likes me referring to her as 'Blulabelle' ) and seems to exist on a diet almost exclusively consisting of chicken McNuggets. 

[Mirror Image]

In other news:

I still haven't contacted the pharmacist to see if she wants to discuss old times. I just keep forgetting about it.

For the last few weeks I've been dating someone. She's the aspiring aerial silks artiste I've mentioned elsewhere. She's younger than me, she has blue hair (and likes me referring to her as 'Blulabelle' ) and seems to exist on a diet almost exclusively consisting of chicken McNuggets. 

I'm not sure how serious you are about 'Blulabelle,' but I'm hoping you enjoy your time with her nevertheless.

[Sergeant Rock]

She introduced me to the music of (amongst others) Brahms, Mahler and Schumann[...]To this day we keep in touch, she occasionally sends me small notes or even CDs she thinks I should listen to.

Ah, the woman you often allude to in the Listening thread? Nice to hear the story of how you met. And great to see a photo of her. Beautiful.

Sarge

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Better to date a girl who has a raspberry bush.

My mouth is watering at the very thought of it.

[Sergeant Rock]

Well....I asked her, we had a little laugh but as Greg predicted, to good to be true; she's taken 

That needn't be the end of it. Sometimes playing the long game works out in your favor. For example:

In the summer of '67, during the break between high school and college, I worked as a carhop at a drive-in restaurant in Barberton Ohio (a small city adjacent to Akron). One evening a car full of women pulled up. The driver was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen: 5'4'', voluptuously round (like Elizabeth Taylor), blue eyes, raven hair worn in a bouffant (Ohio had not yet become long-haired trendy). They didn't order food. Instead, the driver asked me if I had a safety pin. Her bra strap had broken. In fact, I always carried a pin in my wallet, following the advice of the Playboy adviser, who once had recommended a gentleman should be prepared for just that emergency. I'm not making this up   She took the pin, disappeared into the restroom, and returned a short time later, profoundly grateful. She thanked me and they drove off, never to be seen again. The memory of that face and body remained indelible though.

Fast forward one year. I had broken up with my high school love, hooked up briefly with another, older, high school girlfriend (but she was soon off to France for a year) and failed to progress beyond the friend zone with a couple of women at Ohio U. Home for the summer, my best friend suggested a blind date with Barb, a friend of his girlfriend who lived in Akron. He described Barb as tall but my height (5'9'' 175 cm). Meeting her was a shock; she towered over me. (Well, actually she was only about two inches taller but I had a dumb aversion to tall women then; her height bothered me.) So I started out the date rather grumpily, pissed off that my friend had not described her accurately.  Barb was not bothered about my relative lack of stature and she tried all evening to make things work, even pressing me for a second date.

Before going to dinner and a movie, we drove across the city to bring something to another friend of the girls who was babysitting that evening.

In another one of those novelistic coincidences that haunted my youth, the babysitter turned out to be the safety pin girl. Her name was Cindy. She remembered me too. We laughed, telling everyone the tale of how we'd first met. Well, that killed any thought of dating Barb again. I was totally consumed by thoughts of Cindy. On the way home after the date (my friend and I lived in a small town about 20 miles from Akron), I finally had a chance to ask him about Cindy. Unfortunately, she was going steady with a guy who actually lived next door to me when I was a child; a guy I'd gone to high school with. Depressed, I left for Florida a week later to be with, and help my grieving grandmother.

After Florida I went back to Ohio U for the second summer session where I met Marlene the horn player. During the break between summer and fall quarters, I learned Cindy had broken up with her boyfriend, and my friend arranged a first date. The four of us went to Cedar Point amusement park in Sandusky Ohio. Scary rides like the roller coaster facilitate intimacy and we got along great. I didn't see her often after that (besides her studies at U of Akron, she worked crazy hours at a fast food place) but we got along really well when we were together. She wrote insanely long letters after I returned to Ohio U.

Why I stopped seeing her puzzles me to this day. But that's another story and doesn't have anything to do with the point of this one, to wit: play the long game. You might just win 

Sarge

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Seconding all that, the secret to getting 100 dates is trying 2000 times. Nothing less, nothing more. The hit-rate might fluctuate, but not greatly. You don't have to put yourself out there, entirely (as NikF did, in his stair-story), if you don't feel comfortable. Subtlety comes at a price (lower percentage of hits) but it also changes the makeup of the lasses that agree. (Women that agree to more forthright attempts are on average slightly different than those who prefer a subtle-but-not-too subtle drift. Not as different than one might think, but different.)

Somehow the trick is to do it in such a way that you don't think of the 1980 "No's" (however they are communicated; I always did it in such a way that such an explicit answer wasn't necessary for I was a coward... albeit a sometimes desperate coward who pushed harder than I was aware of myself) as rejections.

[NikF]

I'm not sure how serious you are about 'Blulabelle,' but I'm hoping you enjoy your time with her nevertheless.

It's fun, yeah. But it's a case of having the fun while it lasts. She'll become bored when the novelty wears off, which will probably be sooner rather than later. We've the circus skills course to do together that starts in a couple of weeks and so I think it'll last until then.  In the meantime I'm considering trying to organise some kind of deal with McDonald's and Amazon and asking if can they can coordinate drone deliveries of McNuggets directly into her mouth.

Ah, the woman you often allude to in the Listening thread? Nice to hear the story of how you met. And great to see a photo of her. Beautiful.

Sarge

Yeah, that's her. The patience she invested in me with the music was huge. What a gift. She's really cool. But as I pointed out, also an art thief. Nah, she's great.   

[NikF]

That needn't be the end of it. Sometimes playing the long game works out in your favor. For example:

In the summer of '67, during the break between high school and college, I worked as a carhop at a drive-in restaurant in Barberton Ohio (a small city adjacent to Akron). One evening a car full of women pulled up. The driver was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen: 5'4'', voluptuously round (like Elizabeth Taylor), blue eyes, raven hair worn in a bouffant (Ohio had not yet become long-haired trendy). They didn't order food. Instead, the driver asked me if I had a safety pin. Her bra strap had broken. In fact, I always carried a pin in my wallet, following the advice of the Playboy adviser, who once had recommended a gentleman should be prepared for just that emergency. I'm not making this up   She took the pin, disappeared into the restroom, and returned a short time later, profoundly grateful. She thanked me and they drove off, never to be seen again. The memory of that face and body remained indelible though.

Fast forward one year. I had broken up with my high school love, hooked up briefly with another, older, high school girlfriend (but she was soon off to France for a year) and failed to progress beyond the friend zone with a couple of women at Ohio U. Home for the summer, my best friend suggested a blind date with Barb, a friend of his girlfriend who lived in Akron. He described Barb as tall but my height (5'9'' 175 cm). Meeting her was a shock; she towered over me. (Well, actually she was only about two inches taller but I had a really dumb aversion to tall women then; her height really bothered me.) So I started out the date rather grumpily, pissed off that my friend had not described her accurately.  Barb was not bothered about my relative lack of stature and she tried all evening to make things work, even pressing me for a second date.

Before going to dinner and a movie, we drove across the city to bring something to another friend of the girls who was babysitting that evening.

In another one of those novelistic coincidences that haunted my youth, the babysitter turned out to be the safety pin girl. Her name was Cindy. She remembered me too. We laughed, telling everyone the tale of how we'd first met. Well, that really killed any thought of dating Barb again. I was totally consumed by thoughts of Cindy. On the way home after the date (my friend and I lived in a small town about 20 miles from Akron), I finally had a chance to ask him about Cindy. Unfortunately, she was going steady with a guy who actually lived next door to me when I was a child; a guy I'd gone to high school with. Depressed, I left for Florida a week later to be with, and help my grieving grandmother.

After Florida I went back to Ohio U for the second summer session where I met Marlene the horn player. During the break between summer and fall quarters, I learned Cindy had broken up with her boyfriend, and my friend arranged a first date. The four of us went to Cedar Point amusement park in Sandusky Ohio. Scary rides like the roller coaster facilitate intimacy and we got along great. I didn't see her often after that (besides her studies at U of Akron, she worked crazy hours at a fast food place) but we got along really well when we were together. She wrote insanely long letters after I returned to Ohio U.

Why I stopped seeing her puzzles me to this day. But that's another story and doesn't have anything to do with the point of this one, to wit: play the long game. You might just win 

Sarge

Sarge, that's a really cool story. Thanks for posting it. Yeah, sometimes it's difficult to account or explain for how or why stuff happens, especially with relationships and affairs of the heart.
I hope you're maybe considering documenting all this stuff as a rule. They're interesting as hell and also full of cool little period details (like the differences in regions as far as hairstyles are concerned) but in any case I hope you've a few more such dating stories you can post.
And I still think I'm falling in love with the image of Marlene.

[NikF]

Seconding all that, the secret to getting 100 dates is trying 2000 times. Nothing less, nothing more. The hit-rate might fluctuate, but not greatly. You don't have to put yourself out there, entirely (as NikF did, in his stair-story), if you don't feel comfortable. Subtlety comes at a price (lower percentage of hits) but it also changes the makeup of the lasses that agree. (Women that agree to more forthright attempts are on average slightly different than those who prefer a subtle-but-not-too subtle drift. Not as different than one might think, but different.)

Thanks for posting your thoughts and your own experiences. Do feel free to contribute more if you're so inclined. 

You know, you might be right about that (the subtle differences) however my experience is that it's the women you least expect to be responsive to such approaches who respond more favourably to more forward propositions. I also find they're often generally more skilled at hiding many of their interests and tastes and stuff. But I can only speak for myself. And here's my anecdotal evidence.  -

A long time ago I walked into the cafe bar in an arthouse cinema. An attractive woman came in behind me, passed by and through. I checked her out all the way. Then I heard a voice *ask "Could you have made that any more obvious?" I looked and saw a pretty young woman sitting at a table. My reply to her was "I don't know. But stand up and give me a look at you and I'll try." In the UK a woman of her background and social status is known as a Sloane Ranger and I'd never met one before. It's also true to say she hadn't met anyone like me. And a result of that is within three months of that initial conversation we got married.
But you make a good point and it's made me think of something to maybe post later regarding how men behave when they're faced with a woman they're attracted to.

(*That's also a good example of a woman making the first move when she sees a man and is interested in him. It was meant less as a put down of my leering and more to draw my attention to her )

Somehow the trick is to do it in such a way that you don't think of the 1980 "No's" (however they are communicated; I always did it in such a way that such an explicit answer wasn't necessary for I was a coward... albeit a sometimes desperate coward who pushed harder than I was aware of myself) as rejections.

Yeah, there's no point in worrying about stuff that has already happened in the past. The hell with that crap.

[Mirror Image]

It's fun, yeah. But it's a case of having the fun while it lasts. She'll become bored when the novelty wears off, which will probably be sooner rather than later. We've the circus skills course to do together that starts in a couple of weeks and so I think it'll last until then.  In the meantime I'm considering trying to organise some kind of deal with McDonald's and Amazon and asking if can they can coordinate drone deliveries of McNuggets directly into her mouth.

Haha! Yeah, it'll run it's course in due time, but it never had the potential to become serious in the first place I'm sure.

[NikF]

Haha! Yeah, it'll run it's course in due time, but it never had the potential to become serious in the first place I'm sure.

Yeah, it's not a long-term proposition.  

[greg]

Nik, just curious how extroverted are you?