Do you think too much pop/rock music can be a waste of time?

[Florestan]

Just for discussion, an artist might have talent, but insufficient integrity.

I am of the opinion that artist=talent+integrity.

[Madiel]

I am of the opinion that artist=talent+integrity.

Then argue he's not an artist instead of arguing he isn't talented.

[James]

James´ last utterance is indeed not worth replying, not least because it gives me the vague impression that actually someone else has hacked his account.

The is the type of shit I expected. I stand by what I said, no one here really understood what I said anyhow.

[Florestan]

Then argue he's not an artist instead of arguing he isn't talented.

Right.

Justin Bieber is not an artist.

[Rinaldo]

no one here really understood what I said anyhow.

I think you've found your epitaph, James.

[Rinaldo]

Justin Bieber is not an artist.

(this also would make for a fabulous tombstone)

[James]

I think you've found your epitaph, James.

What I said makes perfect sense. It's just some of the folks on this forum are really stupid.

[James]

Really? If Bieber´s got such talent then he should have said "Up yours!" to any record company which forced him to do anything against his talent and move on doing only the music he wanted to. That´s what real talent and real artistic integrity is about.

Oh such macho statements. What you are saying has nothing to do with talent at all.

He's certainly doing the type of thing he wants to do, and has been doing for number of years now.

[Karl Henning]

I think you've found your epitaph, James.

How could any of us insufficiently-musical lot understand what he says?

[Madiel]

(this also would make for a fabulous tombstone)

For Bieber or for one of his more strident critics?

[nathanb]

I, for one, don't particularly connect with Bieber's art, but when the guy's name is invoked every time someone wants to fallaciously prove the existence of objectivity so that they may continue to be a total dick about the dirty, inferior noise you listen to... you feel for him a bit.

[Parsifal]

Really? If Bieber´s got such talent then he should have said "Up yours!" to any record company which forced him to do anything against his talent and move on doing only the music he wanted to. That´s what real talent and real artistic integrity is about.

Justin Bieber, Britney Spears, etc, are not so much individual artists but brands around which highly skilled record producers, session players, sound engineers, video producers, costume designers, choreographers, marketers gather to produce a highly polished product. The ability of the performer to create a persona at the center of this product is not to be discounted.

Say what you will, tracks/videos like Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean," Britney Spears "Slave 4 U," Paula Abdul "Straight Up," Janet Jackson "What Have You Done for me Lately," looked and sounded unlike anything that came before. They cut like a knife through the nondescript pop music that was being listened to and seen on video when they were released. Whether you appreciate or admire them, these were extraordinary acts of artistic creation by the teams that produced them. They are essentially commercial creations and perhaps have more in common with the creation of the iPhone than the composition of a Beethoven string quartet.

If you want personal artistic creation you will have to look to "indy" artists. You can't compare a 3 minute song to an hour long symphony, but I find recordings in popular music which strike me as having just as much artistic interest and integrity as classical miniatures, such as lieder, melodie, nocturnes, etc.

[Monsieur Croche]

What I said makes perfect sense. It's just some of the folks on this forum are really stupid.

Just how stupid are they, James?

[71 dB]

Justin Bieber, Britney Spears, etc, are not so much individual artists but brands around which highly skilled record producers, session players, sound engineers, video producers, costume designers, choreographers, marketers gather to produce a highly polished product. The ability of the performer to create a persona at the center of this product is not to be discounted.

Say what you will, tracks/videos like Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean," Britney Spears "Slave 4 U," Paula Abdul "Straight Up," Janet Jackson "What Have You Done for me Lately," looked and sounded unlike anything that came before. They cut like a knife through the nondescript pop music that was being listened to and seen on video when they were released. Whether you appreciate or admire them, these were extraordinary acts of artistic creation by the teams that produced them. They are essentially commercial creations and perhaps have more in common with the creation of the iPhone than the composition of a Beethoven string quartet.

If you want personal artistic creation you will have to look to "indy" artists. You can't compare a 3 minute song to an hour long symphony, but I find recordings in popular music which strike me as having just as much artistic interest and integrity as classical miniatures, such as lieder, melodie, nocturnes, etc.

This is perhaps the smartest post in this thread so far, especially the green part.   0:)

[71 dB]

Right. Justin Bieber is not an artist.

Considering how much money Justin Bieber has made in his young age and how popular and well-known he is, I don't think "non-artists" like him envy financially struggling people who you call true artists.

I am not into Justin Bieber's music myself and I used to think people like him have very little talent, but I have changed my attitude. During the last 5 years or so I have understood much better what pop music is about and how much talent and work it takes to be a pop star. I would even go so far to say people who are not talented enough to be pop stars become indie artists, but please don't take that too literally. 

[North Star]

Considering how much money Justin Bieber has made in his young age and how popular and well-known he is, I don't think "non-artists" like him envy financially struggling people who you call true artists.

I don't see how that has any relevance to the discussion.

[Karl Henning]

I don't see how that has any relevance to the discussion.

The juxtaposition does seem to say, "He's made a pile of dough, therefore he is an artist."

So now this really stupid person sees at last why the Stockhausen Verlag catalogue is so pricey  0:)

[North Star]

The juxtaposition does seem to say, "He's made a pile of dough, therefore he is an artist."

So now this really stupid person sees at last why the Stockhausen Verlag catalogue is so pricey  0:)

     

[James]

If you want personal artistic creation you will have to look to "indy" artists. You can't compare a 3 minute song to an hour long symphony, but I find recordings in popular music which strike me as having just as much artistic interest and integrity as classical miniatures, such as lieder, melodie, nocturnes, etc.

Size doesn't matter, in a lot of cases less is more, even within Art Music. And pop music of the nature that is focused on within the last few pages of the thread is there to entertain; it's simple, catchy musically/lyrically and you can dance to it, a blast of joy, really not much more .. and the young artists involved operate within that, and the environment that cultivates their "personal statements". Is it High Art? Nope. But it's not going for that..  music does serve many purposes and feeds many hungers. Someone in these sort of discussions always ends up comparing things to teen pop as opposed to bringing up artists within the popular idioms (and not just music) that are far more significant than the many, many - average, lesser, inconsequential classical composers. Realistically, only a handful of composers down through the various eras are really worth knowing. The same can be said for popular music(s). If you compare the best from both "worlds", sure .. the greatest Art Music is the best we've managed to do; but the best popular music beats out the vast majority of really average classical music, easily; and it offers something different.

[Mirror Image]

I don't see how that has any relevance to the discussion.

+1 No relevance at all and completely beside the point.