Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[Mahlerian]

The worth of a legal system is measured exactly by how able it is to stand challenges, irrespective whether they come from an incompetent bigot or a competent one.

I am quite sure you lost your sleep over it and made a vow not to enjoy life anymore until the ban was lifted once and for all...

Look, people suffer as a consequence of bad, silly or unjust governmental action every second, everywhere. Cherrypicking only one class of such people in order to showcase one's moral outrage is at best disingenuous and at worst hypocritical. Why are you not equally outraged by, say, the plight of the white farmers of Zimbabwe, which has been going on for decades, which has resulted in far more damage to people's life, liberty and property than this darn ban will ever produce and which, as opposed to this darn ban, has no chance of ever being redressed by the judiciary or the legislative?

Gee, it's the Fallacy of Relative Privation:

Wiki: "Fallacy of relative privation ("not as bad as") – dismissing an argument or complaint due to the existence of more important problems in the world, regardless of whether those problems bear relevance to the initial argument."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies

The fact that things could be worse doesn't mean that things aren't bad.

[SimonNZ]

This statement is debatable, of course.  Besides that, conceptions of morality and ethics vary significantly.  Empathy is important to some people, and not to others.

Please explain how lack of empathy can be a desirable or useful thing, as opposed to a disorder.

Did you read Ayn Rand at an impressionable age?

[Karl Henning]

Actually, ISIS only needs to recruit Moslems already here.  There is no need to send anyone from abroad. And Trump's policies will help them, by making Moslems feel victimized and alienated.

Yes, indeed.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Karl Henning]

Trump's aim aligns with that of conservative politics in general. They think the media is actively working for the "other side" and the best way to neutralize the media is to discredit it.  Thus Bannon's description of the media as the real enemy, the continual cry about fake news, the sudden focus on leakers as criminals.

If the base thinks the media is a bunch of liars, then for them fighting the media is a good thing.  And to that end they are prepared to ratify Trump's lies as truths.

Yes, again.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Florestan]

Gee, it's the Fallacy of Relative Privation:

Wiki: "Fallacy of relative privation ("not as bad as") – dismissing an argument or complaint due to the existence of more important problems in the world, regardless of whether those problems bear relevance to the initial argument."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies

The fact that things could be worse doesn't mean that things aren't bad.

Gee, it's the Fallacy of Having Completely Missed the Point.

Sorry, I can't offer a Wikipedia link, but the fact that things are not defined therein doesn't mean that things aren't real.

[SimonNZ]

Look, people suffer as a consequence of bad, silly or unjust governmental action every second, everywhere. Cherrypicking only one class of such people in order to showcase one's moral outrage is at best disingenuous and at worst hypocritical. Why are you not equally outraged by, say, the plight of the white farmers of Zimbabwe, which has been going on for decades, which has resulted in far more damage to people's life, liberty and property than this darn ban will ever produce and which, as opposed to this darn ban, has no chance of ever being redressed by the judiciary or the legislative?

You don't know that people aren't outraged by that. But this is a thread about Trump, so he's the outrage we're discussing now - and who has at his disposal the means to be infinitely more harmful than your example unless checked early at moments like these.

[Mahlerian]

Gee, it's the Fallacy of Having Completely Missed the Point.

Sorry, I can't offer a Wikipedia link, but the fact that things are not defined therein doesn't mean that things aren't real.

Where on earth did I imply those problems aren't real?  The point is not that the problems aren't real, but that they have absolutely no relevance to this conversation.

[Florestan]

You don't know that people aren't outraged by that. But this is a thread about Trump, so he's the outrage we're discussing now - and who has at his disposal the means to be infinitely more harmful than your example unless checked.

That's exactly my point. So far he has been held in check alright and I have no reason to expect otherwise in the future. The world at large, otoh, is full of tyrants who have not been held in check and whose victims got and get far less attention and compassion, just because they happen not to be Americans or in any way related to the USA. Talk about discrimination.

[SimonNZ]

That's exactly my point. So far he has been held in check alright and I have no reason to expect otherwise in the future. The world at large, otoh, is full of tyrants who have not been held in check and whose victims got and get far less attention and compassion, just because they happen not to be Americans or in any way related to the USA. Talk about discrimination.

No: the difference is that they don't have a planet-obliterating nuclear arsenal, or such a globaly disruptive economic and diplomatic reach, which is why he gets to be the no.1 concern and they come second.

[Todd]

Did you read Ayn Rand at an impressionable age?

I like what you tried to do here.  Alas, I've never found time to read Ms Rand, but nice try.

You are very, very concerned about empathy.  I get it.  Not everyone is.

[SimonNZ]

You are very, very concerned about empathy.  I get it.  Not everyone is.

You didn't answer my question:

Please explain how lack of empathy can be a desirable or useful thing, as opposed to a disorder.

[Florestan]

No: the difference is that they don't have a planet-obliterating nuclear arsenal, or such a globaly disruptive economic and diplomatic reach, which is why he gets to be the no.1 concern and they come second.

From the point of view of the victims --- which when it comes to empathy and compassion is the only one worth considering --- that difference is moot and whether they lost/lose their life, liberty and/or property because of Mugabe or Castro or Trump or Putin is completely irrelevant.

Besides, just until very recently the POTUS was far from being perceived as such a planetary threat yet I can't remember any moral outrage here on GMG on behalf of those victims who now supposedly come second precisely because the POTUS is now perceived to be a global madman.

[Todd]

You didn't answer my question:

Please explain how lack of empathy can be a desirable or useful thing, as opposed to a disorder.

Sometimes decisions necessary to ensure order must lack empathy. 

[SimonNZ]

Besides, just until very recently the POTUS was far from being perceived as such a planetary threat yet I can't remember any moral outrage here on GMG on behalf of those victims who now supposedly come second precisely because the POTUS is now perceived to be a global madman.

Until very recently there wasn't a POTUS who would say that he just had a briefing and learned that "nuclear holocaust: not good".

[SimonNZ]

Sometimes decisions necessary to ensure order must lack empathy.

I was hoping for examples. Also you made it sound like you were advocating lack of empathy as a permanent personal philosophy, not merely a situational necessary evil - though I'd still like to hear more concrete instances for that.

I was also hoping you'd make this a little more personal, and say why you yourself try to avoid any hint of empathy in your daily life, and the process by which you arrived at this worldview.

[Todd]

I was hoping for examples. Also you made it sound like you were advocating lack of empathy as a permanent personal philosophy, not merely a situational necessary evil - though I'd still like to hear more concrete instances for that.

I was also hoping you'd make this a little more personal, and say why you yourself try to avoid any hint of empathy in your daily life.

You make a lot of assumptions.

[SimonNZ]

You make a lot of assumptions.

C'mon, man. You can do better than that. I'm just following your lead.

Please elaborate on the desirability of a lack of empathy.

[drogulus]

     Lack of empathy has an influence on the behavior of people regarding law enforcement. A police officer can be a psychopath. Politicians can be too, as lawmakers, and some are. Nothing says these are necessary qualifications to enforce the law or create it.

     There are psychopaths that function normally in society. They can blend in and mimic the values others hold for that reason. In stressful times they may feel like they are free to be themselves.

[BasilValentine]

Today Trump came right out and said it: "The press is the enemy of America." I can't tell you where he said it, only that I heard his voice pronouncing those words during an NPR broadcast. In the same little speech he cited ABC, CBS, CNN, and several other acronyms.

[kishnevi]

Don't know about a speech (maybe something impromptu) but he tweeted one version of this, then deleted it, then tweeted out an expanded version
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/832708293516632065