Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)

[ritter]

....
Diluting culture and values is not only stupid but self-destructive.
....

Then again, turning away innocent people (of which there surely are plenty among the refugees), and prejudging them not on who they are but on what group they belong to, is in itself a dilution of culture and values... And that, I'm afraid, is the problem the West (including Europe and America) is facing: reject some of it's most hallowed and sacred principles of the past several hundred years (which cost a lot of blood and sorrow)--e.g. "land of the free"--to protect itself. Many of us our not willing to accept thtis, and reject the policies of Mr. Trump, and Mr. Orban, and Mrs Le Pen, and Mr. Wilders, and Mr. Farrage (yes, they all belong in the same sentence)...

[zamyrabyrd]

Maybe you never heard of radical Islam? Maybe you were somewhere else when most of the terrorism around the world comes from a certain group and in their own countries like Pakistan and Somalia?
It is not incumbent on host nations to eliminate the bad apples from the barrel.
Again, where is the outrage from their countries of origins when atrocities like truck rammings and the like occur?
Please do not give me this tripe about German or French national or even American, when the 2nd generation in a country decides it wants to be radicalized. The Boston Marathon bombing is a case in point.
Even if there is ONE death, ONE beheading, ONE person losing limbs or sight, resulting from stupid immigration policies, it is ONE too many.

ZB

[ahinton]

Jesus never said put your loved ones and children in danger.
Some people get a false sense of virtue by stupid do-gooding.
It really doesn't make any sense to turn Europe or the US into another backward Third World.
Diluting culture and values is not only stupid but self-destructive.

Whilst I don't disagree in principle with that, ritter has a valid point in his/her response.

As I have mentioned on several occasions, one has first to identify beyond all reasonable doubt who and where any terrorist or fomenter of terrorism is before taking any action at all; it's no good simply singling out people who might be thought, for example, to
a) be Muslims or
b) originate from one of Trump's seven mainly Muslim countries or
c) have red hair (however it might be combed) or
d) write "funny modern music" or
e) have Mexican citizenship
Not everyone living in those seven mainly Muslim countries is Muslim, or a potential or actual terrorist, or a citizen of any of those countries. There are plenty of Muslims in other parts of the world, including Western Europe; UK has its fair share and almost 8% of the French population is reckoned to be Muslim. Members of extreme right- or left-wing organisations might be considered potential or actual terrorists wherever they are or from wherever they operate. There are already many Muslims and potential terrorists already living in US who have yet to be subjected to a sanctioning executive order. On top of all of that, as I keep saying, those who are or might become a threat to persons and property in US must first be found and identified before any deportation or other punishment may be meted out to them.

Lastly, how do you suppose that terrorist activity will be turned permanently into an historical phenomenon if the root causes of its origins and motivations are not discovered and steps taken in accordance with such discoveries? You may be contemptuous of that kind of approach (and I'm not suggesting that is it or should be regarded as the "best" approach, still less the "only" one) but, in adopting such a stance, you reveal yourself to be not unakin to the kind of person who aims to rid the world of dangerous mosquitoes by swatting, spraying or electrocuting as many of the as possible. Head joins sand, I fear.

[drogulus]

     Cross-pollination is both necessary and dangerous. A culture won't stay pure, it will crossbreed by expansion or internal migration, usually both. The Japanese have provided a test case, an island nation committed to cultural and ethnic purity, while trying to modernize and keep step with the rest of the advanced world. They are fighting a decline they have chosen. Let's see what gives first.

[zamyrabyrd]

Lastly, how do you suppose that terrorist activity will be turned permanently into an historical phenomenon if the root causes of its origins and motivations are not discovered and steps taken in accordance with such discoveries? You may be contemptuous of that kind of approach (and I'm not suggesting that is it or should be regarded as the "best" approach, still less the "only" one) but, in adopting such a stance, you reveal yourself to be not unakin to the kind of person who aims to rid the world of dangerous mosquitoes by swatting, spraying or electrocuting as many of the as possible. Head joins sand, I fear.

Root causes: Frustration? Not fitting in? Discrimination? Not enough money?
Usually the first hardworking generation tries to make good in the new country.
The problem is the 2nd. This is a biggie.
(I'm talking about those already there, not 20-30 year old terrorists mingling within groups of real refugees.)
If no one is willing to look into possible cultural gaps because it is too politically incorrect to mention, or religious ones, then you are never going to find what you are not looking for.

ZB

[ahinton]

Maybe you never heard of radical Islam?

I think that most of us have heard of that, just as I'm sure that many people realise that, whilst it is undoubtedly one serious source of terrorist activity but by no means the only one; how many mass killings in US or elsewhere (Norway, for example - remember Anders Breivik?) have been committed by radicalised Muslims?

Maybe you were somewhere else when most of the terrorism around the world comes from a certain group and in their own countries like Pakistan and Somalia?

I am not undermining the high profile of ISIS (pr whatever you care to call it) but, once again, it's not the sole source of terrorist activity in US or elsewhere and only one of the two countries that you mention are on Trump's list of seven.

It is not incumbent on host nations to eliminate the bad apples from the barrel.

Unless they import themselves into US and are subsequently discovered there for what they are, I presume...

Again, where is the outrage from their countries of origins when atrocities like truck rammings and the like occur?

Please do not give me this tripe about German or French national or even American, when the 2nd generation in a country decides it wants to be radicalized. The Boston Marathon bombing is a case in point.

What you seem somehow determined to avoid recognising is that terrorists, Musliam and otherwise, can be and indeed are radicalised and trained in any country by people both inside that country and/or elsewhere; this is not merely a generational issue in any case but an individual case-by-case one (which admittedly makes it more difficult to address and deal with successfully wherever it might occur).

Even if there is ONE death, ONE beheading, ONE person losing limbs or sight, resulting from stupid immigration policies, it is ONE too many.

That's all true, of course, except for one thing; what do you regard as "stupid immigration policies" and why do you continue to presume that all actual and potential terrorists are immigrants into the country where they carry out their heinous activities? Again, as I mentioned before, what about those who committed 9/11; they've were not immigrants into US. How much immigration would you seek to stop and why do you suppose that truly stringent restrictions on immigration into US (or anywhere else, for that matter) might at least be a contribution towards a solution when in reality it is more likely to inflame potential immigrants who are denied access?

[zamyrabyrd]

     Cross-pollination is both necessary and dangerous. A culture won't stay pure, it will crossbreed by expansion or internal migration, usually both. The Japanese have provided a test case, an island nation committed to cultural and ethnic purity, while trying to modernize and keep step with the rest of the advanced world. They are fighting a decline they have chosen. Let's see what gives first.

Then Charles Martel should have put out a welcome mat in 732. The same with the Viennese in 1683, which by the way the battle joined occurred on September 11th.

ZB

[ahinton]

Root causes: Frustration? Not fitting in? Discrimination? Not enough money?
Usually the first hardworking generation tries to make good in the new country.
The problem is the 2nd. This is a biggie.
(I'm talking about those already there, not 20-30 year old terrorists mingling within groups of real refugees.)
If no one is willing to look into possible cultural gaps because it is too politically incorrect to mention, or religious ones, then you are never going to find what you are not looking for.

But even if most people in positions of authority and power do look into such gaps and form conclusion from their discoveries that might lead to some kinds of effort to find solutions to what should thereby have turned into a more identifiable and understandable problem, what makes you think that this would actually achieve anything to stop terrorist activity? It might well be advantageous in the long run towards the empathetic understanding of which you earlier appeared to express doubt as best and contempt at worst but, once again, what you write here displays an uncomfortable mix of the complacent, the simplistic and the optimistic to the extent that this or anything else could assist in finding these people before dealing with them in whatever ways might be deemed appropriate on a case-by-case basis.

[ahinton]

Then Charles Martel should have put out a welcome mat in 732. The same with the Viennese in 1683, which by the way the battle joined occurred on September 11th.

But America is already a nation of immigrants! although it is of course by no means alone in that. Who might the racially pure Americans be and who the interlopers?

[ritter]

Maybe you never heard of radical Islam? Maybe you were somewhere else when most of the terrorism around the world comes from a certain group and in their own countries like Pakistan and Somalia?....

Maybe you never heard of the Italian mob? You pride yourself of youy Italian descent (rightly so, please don't get me wrong, as Italy is in many ways the cradle of modern civilization). The US generously admitted hordes of Italian immigrants for a very long time, and most of them prospered through hard work in their country of adoption (first, second, third generation--or whatever). But along with them , came the likes of Lucky Luciano or the parents of Al Capone, surely a very small minority of the whole contingent  By your logic, Italian immigration to the US should have been stopped completely and immediately, as the mob was a real social problem in its heyday (I suppose even to this day), and one that caused innumerable deaths and mayhem.

[Todd]

As I have mentioned on several occasions, one has first to identify beyond all reasonable doubt who and where any terrorist or fomenter of terrorism is before taking any action at all

Can you cite statutes and case law that support this assertion?

[zamyrabyrd]

Matbe you never heard of the Italian mob? You pride yourself of you Italian descent (rightly so, please don't get me wrong, as Italy is in many ways the cradle of modern civilization). The US generously admitted hordes of Italian immigrants for a very long time, and most of them prospered through hard work in their country of adoption (first, second, third generation--or whatever). But along with them , came the likes of Lucky Luciano or the parents of Al Capone, surely a very small minority of the whole contingent  By your logic, Italian immigration to the US should have been stopped completely and immediately, as the mob was a real social problem in its heyday (I suppose even to this day), and one that caused innumerable deaths and mayhem.

My grandfather refused to pay protection money for his barber shop business that forced him to close in the 1910's.
There is really NO comparison between the internecine wars of the various mobs, not only Italian in origin and what is going on today. No need to elaborate.

[ahinton]

Can you cite statutes and case law that support this assertion?

I don't have to, since US is supposedly a democratic country in which the principle of innocence until proven guilty pertains and will continue to do so unless and until the President issues an executive order to over turn it; much the same (other than the Presidential bit) applies in UK and other supposedly democratic country in which such a principle applies.

[ahinton]

My grandfather refused to pay protection money for his barber shop business that forced him to close in the 1910's.
There is really NO comparison between the internecine wars of the various mobs, not only Italian in origin and what is going on today. No need to elaborate.

There might not be, but what we're presumably discussing here is the extent to which immigration has caused, or at the very least worsened, US' susceptibility to terrorist activity, especially when it is known that the majority of such actions on US soil have not been committed by immigrants.

[Todd]

I don't have to, since US is supposedly a democratic country in which the principle of innocence until proven guilty pertains and will continue to do so unless and until the President issues an executive order to over turn it; much the same (other than the Presidential bit) applies in UK and other supposedly democratic country in which such a principle applies.

You don't have to, of course, which is good, because you can't.  The court decisions of the last few weeks do not apply the highest criminal law standard to all immigration laws and actions. 

[Rinaldo]

Jesus never said put your loved ones and children in danger.

The danger is imaginary and your fear stems from misinformation and prejudice. Terorrism needs to be confronted, but that's a different (and much more complicated) story. The only effect the ban had was alienating muslims and therefore playing into the ISIS rhetoric of "us vs the West". Trump made your loved ones less safe already and will keep doing so, through gross incompetence.

[Todd]

Terorrism needs to be confronted, but that's a different (and much more complicated) story.

How should it be confronted?

[Turner]

My grandfather refused to pay protection money for his barber shop business that forced him to close in the 1910's.
There is really NO comparison between the internecine wars of the various mobs, not only Italian in origin and what is going on today. No need to elaborate.

We´ve been down this road before, apparently forgotten:

#6849 http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24159.msg1015746/topicseen.html#msg1015746
#6869 http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24159.6860.html

showing that due to the organized crime and increasing murder rates, Italians were actually previously very much the object of xenophobia, lynching and even anti-immigration law initiative in the US.

ZB seems to stick to a previous, ironical statement:"Oh sure, the Mafia went around blowing up buildings, attacking civilians with knives, shooting up places of entertainment with women and children in them. The cruelty perpetrated is on an entirely different level, the last horror happening in Nice with an "ice cream" truck mowing down and killing 80 or so people. There are simply too many atrocities to remember or list. The last one usually obliterates the memory of the one before",
ignoring the many, innocent victims, judges, police officers etc. in Mafia crime and killings, by repeating the "internecine" label.

[zamyrabyrd]

The danger is imaginary and your fear stems from misinformation and prejudice. Terorrism needs to be confronted, but that's a different (and much more complicated) story. The only effect the ban had was alienating muslims and therefore playing into the ISIS rhetoric of "us vs the West". Trump made your loved ones less safe already and will keep doing so, through gross incompetence.

Wow, 9/11 was imaginary! I'll get writer's cramp by listing everything from them until the latest atrocities in Germany, Istanbul and Nice. You won't acknowledge them anyway.
Actually, the immediate effect of alienating a certain group is all quiet on the Western front!
What you don't understand is the sniveling cowardice behind all that posing.

[Christo]

Then Charles Martel should have put out a welcome mat in 732. The same with the Viennese in 1683, which by the way the battle joined occurred on September 11th.

ZB

Both battles are certainly not a confrontation of 'Christianity and Islam' as the mythologists want to have it. At Vienna, the Hungarian Protestants fought at the Ottoman side and Charles Martel wouldn't even have understood you: two years later he committed genocide in the Northern region where I happen to live.